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Forced responses: Mar 2018

Filed under: — group @ 1 March 2018

This month’s open thread on responses to climate change (politics, adaptation, mitigation etc.). Please stay focused on the overall topic. Digressions into the nature and history of communism/feudal societies/anarchistic utopias are off topic and won’t be posted. Thanks. The open thread for climate science topics is here.

346 Responses to “Forced responses: Mar 2018”

  1. 301

    KIA,

    Do you know how much fuel would be required to loft a mass 1/100 that of the Moon into Earth orbit?

  2. 302

    In your link, figure 2 indicates that sea levels around California went down by about 1 mm/year from 1992 to 2009 – oh yes, that’s what it shows. Judge Alsup could use that information. :)

    Nice try, but in terms of utility to the good Judge, ‘fraid not.

    I noticed the decrease over that time span, too, but also that the anomaly pattern is awfully suggestive of El Nino. Sure enough, the period from 1992-2009 is non-stationary WRT ENSO, which should mean in turn that the SLR trend is biassed. (ENSO affects local sea levels in the Pacific on an East-West gradient, I believe.) Here’s the average annual SOI index from ’92-2009:

    http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h402/brassdoc/Mean%20Annual%20SOI%20value.png

    Data:

    http://origin.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ONI_v5.php

    There’s also a broadly similar pattern over that span for the PDO, which unlike ENSO is on woodfortrees, and which also definitely does apply to California’s latitudes:

    http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/jisao-pdo/from:1992/to:2009/plot/jisao-pdo/from:1992/to:2009/trend

    In any case, longer-term trends all along the California coast are uniformly positive, including at San Francisco:

    https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html

    You can also get the data for the SF tidal gauge:

    https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/data/9414290_meantrend.txt

    And you can plot it versus the SOI curve just linked:

    http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h402/brassdoc/San%20Francisco%20SL%20anomaly%20vs.%20SOI.png

    What do you know? Pretty good agreement, both in the shape of the curves and of the resultant linear trends! Clearly there are other things going on with local SLR in ‘Frisco, but clearly also SOI is a significant driver.

  3. 303
    Killian says:

    10% to 15% penetration in the ag industry for regenerative practices is hugely significant. 2 or 3x my expectations.

    The times they are a changin’.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/04/09/597617822/a-grass-roots-movement-for-healthy-soil-spreads-among-farmers

  4. 304
    No Causation says:

    Why we can’t comprehend climate change
    Meara SharmaSpecial To The Washington Post

    A decade ago, the environmental philosopher Timothy Morton invented a new word: hyperobject. It describes something so “massively distributed in time and space relative to humans” that it eludes our understanding.

    The best example of a hyperobject is climate change. Its scale confounds our perception. It is everywhere- “viscous,” as Morton has it – and yet it is hard to see directly. Its implications are so great that they verge on unthinkable.

    William T. Vollmann’s new book, “No Immediate Danger,” tussles with the comprehension-defying nature of climate change.

    It is a 600-page amalgam of scientific history, cultural criticism, mathematical experiments, risk-benefit analyses of energy production and consumption, and diaristic meanderings through radiation-festooned landscapes post-Fukushima. The effect is bewildering.

    The first of two volumes, jointly called “The Carbon Ideologies,” the whole book is written as a letter to the future.

    “Someday,” it begins, “perhaps not long from now, the inhabitants of a hotter, more dangerous and biologically diminished planet than the one on which I lived may wonder what you and I were thinking, or whether we thought at all. This book is for them.”

    read the rest here and follow the refs
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/books/ct-william-vollmann-climate-change-20180409-story.html

    I have been collection and writing a similar book! For the future folks to understand how my generations left such a shit hole to them and they knew it and sat on their hands!

    Plus a compilation of how never to let that kind of people ever get into positions of power and influence ever again.

    It includes many quotes from Real Climate and many other supposedly high brow ‘scientific fora’.

  5. 305
    No Causation says:

    Vollmann admits to the reader from the future that much of it had to do with assuaging his own guilt, avoiding the shame of doing nothing.

    “Well, in the end I did nothing just the same,” he concedes. “And the same went for most everyone I knew.”

    Et tu, Brute?

  6. 306
    Mr. Know It All says:

    301 – BPL
    “Do you know how much fuel would be required to loft a mass 1/100 that of the Moon into Earth orbit?”

    No fuel required. Launch using electromagnetic rail gun powered by a big PV installation. Could launch from the moon also, lower gravity, no atmosphere, so you’d lose less of each rock to heat ablation but would probably need a manned moon base. If we can’t do it on the moon might as well forget Mars, right?

  7. 307

    KIA: No fuel required. Launch using electromagnetic rail gun powered by a big PV installation.

    BPL: The amount of energy to get something into orbit has an irreducible minimum. Launching 1/100 the mass of the Moon into Earth orbit is prohibitive. It simply can’t be done with an economy that isn’t orders of magnitude wealthier than the entire world at present.

  8. 308
    Ray Ladbury says:

    Mr. KIA: “No fuel required. Launch using electromagnetic rail gun powered by a big PV installation.”

    You are aware that terms like electromagnetic rail gun and PV installation have real meanings and are not just spells in a book at Hogwartz, right?

    If you use a rail gun, you must launch your projectile with > escape velocity, since it must have all its kinetic energy up front–and of course, it will vaporize. So, what you have there is a recipe for silica and metal precipitation.

  9. 309
    Al Bundy says:

    Mr KIA: No fuel required. Launch using electromagnetic rail gun powered by a big PV installation.

    AB: Current costs are $10k/lb. So let’s drop it an order of magnitude: $1k/lb. The moon weighs 16×10^22 pounds. So you’re talking 16×10^20lbs @ $1×10^3/lb = $16×10^23
    The gross world product (GWP) is $1×10^14. So it will only take a million years to build your new moon, assuming nobody eats. (Here’s where you stick yet another foot in your mouth by whining about energy instead of money. I’m betting the math stays similar: tis laughably impossible.)

    As BPL noted, you have a scaling problem. Note that scaling problems are a perennial Republican/denier problem. You just don’t understand that pushing pennies and pounds (like poor folks) is not even remotely the same thing physically, ethically, or morally as pushing millions and megatons. Look at the thread on the AMOC: “In our study we conclude that the AMOC has weakened by about 15% since the middle of the 20th century. In absolute figures, this is a weakening of the current by 3 million cubic metres per second” Yes, the WEAKENING of the AMOC is more water/energy than you could fathom. (ooo, a nautical pun)

  10. 310
    Hank Roberts says:

    Environmental Group Plans Methane-Tracking Satellite

    By Christopher Joyce

    NPR.org, April 11, 2018 · An environmental organization has unveiled plans to monitor a potent greenhouse gas from space.

    The Environmental Defense Fund says it will launch a satellite to monitor methane with unprecedented precision.

    Steven Hamburg, a climate scientist at EDF, says methane has many times the warming “potential” as the other more abundant greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide.

    “Methane is such a potent greenhouse gas,” he says. “The gas actually accounts for more than one quarter of the additional warming that we experience today.”

    Methane leaks from oil and gas operations. Farms also generate methane as do natural wetlands.

    Tracking methane in the air is hard because it rises and spreads from the source. Measurements taken on the ground and from planes vary all over the place.

    Hamburg says the satellite, called MethaneSAT, is the best thing yet for quantifying and tracking the gas: “It will be able to see where it’s happening [and] how much, across the globe — not just the big sources, but all the sources collectively, and understand the scale of the problem. That’s the kind of data we don’t have anywhere in the world.”

    The satellite will be about the size of a beer keg and is due for launch in three years. It’s funded with money raised from wealthy philanthropists.

    Atmospheric scientist Steven Wofsy is at Harvard University, which is part of the team. He says satellites that currently measure methane deliver good data, but render a big blurry picture.

    “We’re looking at the regional scale down to the square kilometer scale or even finer,” Wofsy says. He adds that having an independent, bird’s eye view of methane sources means scientists don’t have to get permission to go into oil and gas operations to find leaks. Wofsy says some people suspect that companies might be cleaning up their operations before an arranged visit.

    “There’s been a lot of discussion,” he says. “How can you believe it? It’ll be something that’s just set up for you.”

    The satellite will also scan other methane sources like dairy operations, rice paddies, landfills and wetlands. While it may not be precise enough to identify an individual well or farm or rice field, it can locate regions where methane is high, and where it moves over time.

    Ultimately, of course, people will then have to figure out how to stop the leaks.

  11. 311
    Hank Roberts says:

    > If you use a rail gun

    Well, there’s lobbing a hunka stuff up with the railgun then zapping it with ground-based lasers to volatilize its load
    _____________
    $100-Million Plan Will Send Probes to the Nearest Star – Scientific …
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/100-million-plan-will-send-probes-to-the-nearest-star1/

    Apr 12, 2016 – Using a sophisticated adaptive-optics system of deformable mirrors to keep each pulse coherent and sharp against the blurring effects of the atmosphere, the laser array would boost perhaps one orbiting nanocraft per day. Each laser pulse would contain as much power as that produced by a space shuttle …

  12. 312
    Hank Roberts says:

    Don’t forget the Kzinti Lesson — any sufficiently advanced propulsion system also can function as a weapon.

  13. 313
    nigelj says:

    Mr KIA, regarding ray guns and rocks in space. You watch too many save the world science fiction movies starring people like Brue Willis. They aren’t real you know. You do know this, right?

  14. 314
    No Causation says:

    Title: “How To Overcome The ‘Analysis Paralysis’ Of Decision-Making”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffboss/2015/03/20/how-to-overcome-the-analysis-paralysis-of-decision-making/#3ee9d51d1be5

    Extract:

    “Set a ‘drop dead’ date.

    Get a sanity check.

    Curb your curiosity.

    Recognize that the moons will never align.

    Stair step your decisions.

    Decisions are never final for the simple fact that change is never absolute. Rather, change is ongoing.”

  15. 315
    Al Bundy says:

    Hank R: Don’t forget the Kzinti Lesson — any sufficiently advanced propulsion system also can function as a weapon.

    AB: True. One of the best candidates for faster than light travel, which expands and contracts space behind and in front of it so the spacecraft “surfs”, would result, upon deceleration, in all the interstellar dust whisked up in front being turned to really nasty radiation that would obliterate anything at the destination.

  16. 316
    Killian says:

    Regarding the thermohaline thread:

    New research provides strong evidence that one of the long-predicted worst-case impacts of climate change — a severe slow-down of the Gulf Stream system — has already started. The system, also known as the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC), brings warmer water northward while pumping cooler water southward. “I think we’re close to a tipping point,” climatologist Michael Mann told ThinkProgress in an email. The AMOC slow down “is without precedent” in more than a millennium he said, adding, “It’s happening about a century ahead of schedule relative to what the models predict.”

    https://thinkprogress.org/climate-tipping-point-century-ahead-of-schedule-warns-scientist-06d633f968fc/

    Now where have we heard this before, that things would be happening far faster than predicted? But, meh, what do I know? We pay attention to connections in designing systems, so we notice them when they become disconnected or out of phase, etc.

    This is how I knew years ago things would not just go faster, but much faster. The AMOC is *not* a century ahead of schedule as I view things.

    The bug/bird die-off is stressing me out, to be honest. Time might be shorter than even *I* think.

  17. 317
    Killian says:

    I have stated in the past, and been, to put it politely, strongly and inaccurately disagreed with, that climate can change 5C in 10 years. Such changes are typically regional or hemispheric, but still a big deal. Clovis culture was likely destroyed during the Younger Dryas which seems to have been triggered by the draining of NA glacial waters.

    The new AMOC research states, ” During the last Ice Age, winter temperatures changed by up to 10C within three years in some places.”

    Three years! And, as I have suggested many times, there is no real hysteresis in the system, so why wouldn’t rates of change only be faster than we have ever seen?

    Please listen. When Rhamstorf, et al., are worried about sub-century climatic flips, it’s bad. When it comes to mitigation, designing to what is comfortable to you/society is maladaptive, if not edging on mental and emotional dysfunction – call it denial, for simplicity’s sake.

    The correct framing is and always has been risk, not what is socio-politically acceptable. The risk is collapse, if not a virtually dead planet in the end, and the nature of tipping points should be your foremost metric for risk.

    Tipping points cannot yet be effectively identified before they arrive, scientifically. Rahmstorf says

    “We are dealing with a system that in some aspects is highly non-linear, so fiddling with it is very dangerous, because you may well trigger some surprises,” he said. “I wish I knew where this critical tipping point is, but that is unfortunately just what we don’t know. We should avoid disrupting the Amoc at all costs. It is one more reason why we should stop global warming as soon as possible.”

    Non-scientifically, or rather, at correlations less than 0.01 or 0.05, we can analyze trends and wobbles and make educated guesses about these things. Phase change already happened: The AMOC is slowing and that slowing is accelerating… another ohase change? The question is only how many bifurcations till it rapidly shuts down?

    Arguing for politically feasible solutions is itself infeasable. We must begin showing the world that only a systems overhaul at a speed they cannot today imagine has any hope of avoiding massive death and disruption globally, possibly by the end of this century, if not sooner. One of the AMOC articles I read spoke of possibly only a few decades until shut down.

    They just don’t know, and that is no comfort.

  18. 318
    nigelj says:

    “It is possible to limit warming to 1.5C above pre-industrial temperatures without using negative emissions from bioenergy with carbon capture and storage (BECCS), new research says.”

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/world-can-limit-global-warming-to-onepointfive-without-beccs

  19. 319
    Mr. Know It All says:

    307 – BPL
    309 – Al B
    A mass that pulls oceans using the same force as the moon may not be required – perhaps a mass only 1/1000 or less would provide some relief from RSL? Probably best to shoot rocks from the moon, instead of from earth due to lower required velocity and little atmospheric friction. PHD thesis project? Maybe we need more than one manmade moon? :)

    312 – Hank R
    You are correct on weapons potential – rail guns are being deployed by the US military:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CHA1pDqRbg

    313 – Nigelj
    Don’t know about “ray guns”, but we do have laser weapons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyUh_xSjvXQ

    Rocks in space? Believe it or not, they’re up there.

  20. 320
    Killian says:

    #318 nigelj said “It is possible to limit warming to 1.5C above pre-industrial temperatures without using negative emissions from bioenergy with carbon capture and storage (BECCS), new research says.”

    …along with unprecedented efforts to limit energy needs, so that demand in 2100 falls to half of today’s levels.

    Let me translate: BECCS is magical thinking, sure, but hey, we can still keep our lattes and most of our cars and, well, everything!, if we gadget up, ignore resource limits, ignore risk assessment and assume 1.5 really is safe!

    Must. Keep. Latte. Machines.

    At all costs.

    The world is an incredibly complex place and the losses of habitats, consumption of resources and changes due to those two things – like climate changes, species extinction, etc. – will have unintended interactions and consequences we have yet to anticipate. There is no way to model this accurately. Rest assured, Liebig’s minimums will crop up all over. Just a few:

    Water already critically low
    die-offs already critically high

    Those two all by themselves can disrupt everything else. Let’s not ignore the fact efficiency never reduces consumption in the long run, yet it is the key to this little fantasy.

    Until there is a sane definition of sustainability, and until that is replaced with regenerative systems, people are going to keep making the same mistakes because a false premise – economy either supersedes or is equal to ecology – leads to false conclusions.

  21. 321
    Killian says:

    Further to previous, I missed this:

    Singer adds: “Lifestyle changes for the globally high-consuming and emitting rich…are [a] fundamental part of the equation…This is not limited to individual dietary changes…[it] also includes significant transport and travel behavioural change, institutionalised longer durability of products, higher reusability of components, new materials and, overall, a circular economy.

    Can anyone tell me why the bolded bit is incompatible with what comes before it?

    Hint: Sadly, “circular economy” has become sexy as a solution because it doesn’t change the core of anything, even allowing Capitalism/private onwership of capital.

    That stated, I am looking for specific analyses of the things in the quote and their compatibility with “circular economy.”

  22. 322
    Ray Ladbury says:

    Mr. KIA,
    In terms of the energetics, it is trivial to show that your scheme of shooting rocks into GEO would not work. It would be much more feasible to deflect an asteroid and capture it in GEO–as here, all you’d have to do is shed a whole shitload of momentum. Unfortunately, with any such scheme, a miscalculation could be catastrophic. What goes up may come down…hard.
    So, you can come up with pie in the sky (literally) geoengineering schemes or you can reengineer the energy infrastructure to meet the needs of the 21st century. All the strategy advocated by the fossil fuel interests and the current administration will accomplish is ensuring that the US is on the ass end of history…or the lead end of extinction.

  23. 323
    Carrie says:

    with respectand appreciation Killian-Arguing for politically feasible solutions is itself infeasable.

    pretty much, yes.

    and, We must begin showing the world that only a systems overhaul at a speed they cannot today imagine has any hope of avoiding massive death and disruption globally

    not going to happen killian. the world is not listening anyway. talking about it here is a nonstarter anyway. a longtime reader who sees no here believes or listens to you eitheryou already known that. hate to see good people wasting their time and energy like this.

  24. 324
    Carrie says:

    the ultimate forced response

    Lawyer Dies After Setting Himself On Fire In New York Park

    By 2016, Buckel was focusing on protecting the environment. As a senior organics recovery coordinator for an initiative hosted by the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, he wrote about how Brooklynites were composting food with the help of solar and wind energy.

    On the last day of his life, he reportedly emphasized environmental responsibility, stating in a note to the media, “Pollution ravages our planet, oozing inhabitability via air, soil, water and weather. Most humans on the planet now breathe air made unhealthy by fossil fuels, and many die early deaths as a result — my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.”

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/15/602643461/prominent-gay-rights-lawyer-dies-after-setting-himself-on-fire-in-new-york-park

    Have a nice day

  25. 325
    Carrie says:

    In simpler terms it’s all a waste of time for i believe we were happiest and healthiest according to evolution to live like the natives did all over the world on every continent with no clue what other tribes were doing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nUhHofw0U

    somehow something went very wrong and the seeds of humans own destruction was engaged and so here we are on the cusp of being wiped out by nature naturally according to the laws of physics maths nature so there’s nothing to do and nothing to resist because that’s life in a nutshell one day there were dinosaurs the next day there wasn’t shit happens

  26. 326

    Carrie, #323-5–

    Despair is understandable, and should invite compassion (as well as stimulate action.)

    However:

    Despair is not adaptive.

  27. 327
    Mr. Know It All says:

    324 – Carrie

    Another story on that mitigation technique:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/04/15/man-sets-fire-dies-climate-change-suicide/

    This mitigation technique not recommended due to release of too much CO2.

  28. 328
    Killian says:

    #325 Carrie said In simpler terms it’s all a waste of time for i believe we were happiest and healthiest according to evolution to live like the natives did all over the world on every continent with no clue what other tribes were doing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nUhHofw0U

    Well, if you can get it, why can’t others? Onward.

    #323 Carrie said with respectand appreciation

    Killian-Arguing for politically feasible solutions is itself infeasable.

    pretty much, yes.

    and, We must begin showing the world that only a systems overhaul at a speed they cannot today imagine has any hope of avoiding massive death and disruption globally

    not going to happen killian.

    While I appreciate the support and knowing others see at least in some degree what I do, showing others can, thus giving hope, you should know I am no more fond of solutions denial than of climate denial, and the former is now the more dangerous of the two since we seem to have hit a tipping point with denial.

    the world is not listening anyway. talking about it here is a nonstarter anyway. a longtime reader who sees no one[sic] here believes or listens to you eitheryou already known that. hate to see good people wasting their time and energy like this.

    If I thought I were, I wouldn’t be here. As I have said many a time over the years, I do not post for the posters, but for the silent majority who never do, and to a lesser extent the scientists. I have seen some significant movement over the years in outlook and tone. While none of it has ever been referenced back to my activities here, psychologically it may still have played a part in the more subconscious realm. I like to think so.

  29. 329
    nigelj says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12035508

    “Game changer’: Discovery on tiny island could alter global economy”

    “A tiny island in the Pacific Ocean is the site of a huge discovery that has been described as a “game changer”.

    “Japanese researchers have mapped vast reserves of rare-earth elements in deep-sea mud — enough to feed global demand on a “semi-infinite basis”, according to a new study published in journal Scientific Reports.”

    “The deposits, found within Japan’s exclusive economic waters, contain more than 16 million tonnes of the elements needed to build hi-tech products from smartphones and radar devices to missile systems and electric vehicles, according to the study.”

  30. 330
    Carrie says:

    The following should indicate how dysfunctional western democracies have become in addressing serious endemic social harms today.

    How incompetent and out of touch with communities that western politicians, western govt institutions, banking and economists really are.

    And should point out clearly the distinct lack of leadership and vision that exists in climate science bodies and from the predominant established elites of climate science academia circles.

    see https://www.rte.ie/news/enviroment/2018/0418/955466-environment-citizens-assembly/

    100% of the Members recommended that the State should take a leadership role in addressing climate change through mitigation measures, including, for example, retrofitting public buildings, having low carbon public vehicles, renewable generation on public buildings and through adaptation measures including, for example, increasing the resilience of public land and infrastructure.

    100% of the Members recommended that the State should act to ensure the greatest possible levels of community ownership in all future renewable energy projects by encouraging communities to develop their own projects and by requiring that developer-led projects make share offers to communities to encourage greater local involvement and ownership.

    99 % of the Members recommended that the State should review, and revise supports for land use diversification with attention to supports for planting forests and encouraging organic farming.

    99% of the Members recommended that the State should enable, through legislation, the selling back into the grid of electricity from micro-generation by private citizens (for example energy from solar panels or wind turbines on people’s homes or land) at a price which is at least equivalent to the wholesale price.

    98% of the Members recommended that to ensure climate change is at the centre of policy-making in Ireland, as a matter of urgency a new or existing independent body should be resourced appropriately, operate in an open and transparent manner, and be given a broad range of new functions and powers in legislation to urgently address climate change.

    97% of the Members recommended that the State should end all subsidies for peat extraction and instead spend that money on peat bog restoration and making proper provision for the protection of the rights of the workers impacted with the majority 61% recommending that the State should end all subsidies on a phased basis over 5 years.

    96% of the Members recommended that the State should immediately take many steps to support the transition to electric vehicles

    96% of the Members recommended that the State should undertake a comprehensive assessment of the vulnerability of all critical infrastructure (including energy, transport, built environment, water and communications) with a view to building resilience to ongoing climate change and extreme weather events. The outcome of this assessment should be implemented. Recognising the significant costs that the State would bear in the event of failure of critical infrastructure, spending on infrastructure should be prioritised to take account of this.

    93% of the Members recommended the State should introduce a standard form of mandatory measurement and reporting of food waste at every level of the food distribution and supply chain, with the objective of reducing food waste in the future.

    93% of the Members recommended that the number of bus lanes, cycling lanes and park and ride facilities should be greatly increased in the next five years, and much greater priority should be given to these modes over private car use.

    Anyone who argues against these recommendations is a fool and/or an anti-humanity psychopath of the highest order.

  31. 331
    JRClark says:

    Since the rise of civilization the only people able to manage, for any length of time, the intrigues and machinations of those with agency have been sociopaths/psychopaths, they interbred, here we are.

    As a child I used to think ‘the whole land was under an enchantment’ meant some kind of occult/supernatural power was being exercised, it was in reality merely the discrete management of the Overton Window. Seems this applies here and to most other internet forums by default. We repeat the norms of life in which we live.

    It may be the case that civilization, by which I mean living in cultural mass religion based groups larger and more unrelated than we are genetically adapted to through a million years of evolution, has a dynamic of it’s own.

    Leading eventually to a single all powerful ruler / court / oligarchs who act solely in their own interests, much like the social insect’s hierarchy. Except that in our particular primate case thought memes are the controlling force in place of classical pheromones.

    Even our religions, and curiously the opposition through atheism science economics in the west, are modeled on this ideal. Whereas a true community ethical morally based democracy/populism for the good of all – people acting and co-operating together based solely on humanistic survivalist principles of respect, sharing and egalitarianism (the old extant tribal community glue) – and then coupled with spreading a higher quality of information which serves their own grass roots interests – all for one and one for all – is the only countervailing force.

    One that is close to being eradicated worldwide lest the good and true stand up to the predominant global narrative driven by the elites in every field of endeavor, those sociopaths/psychopaths of our era. I see no countervailing forces working here nor on similar apparently pro-climate science pro-mitigation action forums. I hear the deadening sounds from a multitude of echo chambers instead.

    The road to hell is paved with delusional claims made by all manner of elites, experts and their naive thoughtless followers about their great and good intentions rushing headlong to the abyss.

  32. 332
    JRClark says:

    Swapping one leader for the Psychopaths for another leader of the Psychopaths is no solution to anything let alone rationally tackling the entrenched causes of climate change. As goes America so goes the world.

    Fighting the Oligarchy Inside the Democratic Party

    Across the country, progressive activists are waging a fight on two fronts, against Trump and the far right and the policies of this administration, but also inside the Democratic Party against what Bernie Sanders calls the oligarchs, the section at least that controls the Democratic Party. Some people call them corporate Democrats. How do they balance this fight. Some people say that fighting against Democrats of any shape or size or color at this point in the campaign weakens the fight against Trump. On the other hand, some of the leading activists say the fight does need to be waged. In fact, they suggest that if the fight against corporate Democrats isn’t successful the fight against Trump won’t be successful. Here’s Nina Turner at a recent event at the Real News Network.

    NINA TURNER: Sisters and brothers, again, this is not just , see, folks want us to fixate so much, overly so, on the man in the White House. He makes it hard for us not to pay attention to what he’s doing. I’m not saying ignore what he’s doing. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t bump up or get some resistance, fight what he’s doing. But what are we going to do once we’re done resisting? What are we going to replace him with in 2020? Because I say that any old blue just won’t do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJiiKbyCWy0

    James Hansen, Oliver Stone and thousands of others have been calling for a new third reality based science evidence based people’s party for years yet still the nation is deaf to Truth – there is no democracy no justice no ethical media nor rule of law worth a dime left in America.

    This all died decades ago but no one held a public funeral for these traditions as the crazies rush headlong into creating a new world war ready willing and able to deploy nuclear weapons to shore up their riches and their psychopathic global power base. How insane and criminal do things need to get before people finally wake up and declare all the self-appointed emperors have no clothes or humanity?

    Psychopaths understand and respect only one thing – an overwhelming force leveled against them personally. Only the sane people of the world posses that force. No one else.

  33. 333
    JRClark says:

    Think people. Maybe stop drinking the koolaid on every subject including why there is no substantial action to tackle climate change in any western nation and only a handful of climate scientists out of more than 30,000 scientists are ever heard speaking about that, including here and on other like pro-climate science forums – it’s the chilling effect, it’s self-imposed delusions – and they both work like a dream.

    MSNBC Worse Than Sinclair Broadcasting – Ed Schultz confirms that MSNBC actively prohibited Bernie coverage during the 2016 campaign and reveals even more.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18YMTWFpKmo

    Former MSNBC host Ed Schultz recently spoke out about the network and confirmed what we knew all along: they tried to suppress information about Bernie Sanders’ campaign in 2016. Schultz also states that the president of MSNBC, Phil Griffin, “often” tried to dictate what hosts talked about. It’s a bombshell revelation that should—once and for all—discredit MSNBC as the supposed “liberal” news network.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3luViu4XDIg

    NSA Genius Debunks Russiagate Once & For All
    Denounces fraudulent claims the DNC computers were hacked via the internet – the data now up on Wikileaks was extracted via a USB drive internally at the DNC offices, then the DNC outright refused access to the FBI and US Intel services ever since.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv0-Lnv0d0k

    This is how the system operates. The causes of blocking any logical effective solutions to the impacts from climate change are all part of the very same protection racket run by psychopaths – including the western propaganda against Syria, Russia and China. Exactly the same method orchestrated by the very same elites and oligarchs who rule the West.

  34. 334
    JRClark says:

    The Young Turks editorial about the proactive undemocratic interference in the 2016 US elections 19 Apr 2018 – including climate change action issues such as the KeystoneXL pipeline
    https://youtu.be/-0w_8spt-6c?t=10m10s

    related climate change (politics, adaptation, mitigation etc.) coverage
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/keystone-pipeline-leak-was-twice-big-previously-thought-180968722/

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-transcanada-pipeline-leak/keystone-pipeline-leak-in-south-dakota-about-double-previous-estimate-paper-idUSKBN1HE0T7

    High-ranking public servants in the federal government discussed speeding up the review of Kinder Morgan’s Trans Mountain expansion project in 2016 following a phone call from the company’s Canadian chief executive, Ian Anderson, reveal newly-released documents. And one day after the Texas energy company lobbied the top public servant at Natural Resources Canada, officials warned the proposed pipeline would be “abandoned” if delays were significant.
    https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/04/18/news/high-ranking-federal-officials-sped-trans-mountain-review-after-phone-call-kinder

    The South Dakota Supreme Court has decided to hear tribal arguments about revoking the state permit for the construction of TransCanada Corp.’s proposed Keystone XL Pipeline, setting oral arguments here for April 17.
    https://intercontinentalcry.org/south-dakota-high-court-hear-tribes-case-keystone-xl-pipeline-permit/

    Pipeline Leaks 42,000 Gallons Into Indiana Stream
    https://www.ecowatch.com/pipeline-leaks-indiana-stream-2551737931.html

    Crews are cleaning up after an oil and saltwater leak from a pipeline owned by Paramount Resources Ltd. was discovered near Zama City in the far northwest corner of Alberta last week.

    About 100,000 litres of oil and 190,000 litres of salty produced water is estimated to have affected an area about 200 by 200 metres square, according to the Alberta Energy Regulator.
    https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-223849-6-.htm

    Another tip of an iceberg of irreparable harm being done right now, so suck it up folks

  35. 335
    JRClark says:

    “Proof American Wars Are All Lies & Usually For Oil” from
    https://youtu.be/0FE8-HkXlOs?t=7m28s a Jimmy Doyle editorial

    So your government lies to you to get you to go to war and then, the news media are stenographers, because they’re owned by the people who make profits off war and they’re funded by them.

    Why do you think climate change is still a debate on network news? It’s because they’re funded by fossil fuel companies. It’s not a debate in science. It’s not a debate in the real world but it’s still a debate on Brian Williams news show cuz he’s funded by fossil fuel companies and the military-industrial complex.

    Boeing does advertisements on Meet the Press. Are you looking to buy a jet? I’m not looking to buy a jet. Why would they be doing that? Because the news organizations are supposed to investigate people (and criminal activity, corruption and dishonesty by politicians.)

    So instead they give them the money, not to fund their investigations, but to fund their non-investigations.

    And that’s why Meet the Press is supported by Boeing, Halliburton, Archers Daniel Midland, and fossil fuel companies.

    So now we just got it straight from the horse’s mouth (Larry Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to General Colin Powell when head of the JCOS 1990) and you’re never gonna hear this guy in MSNBC during a run-up to a war.

    Did you see this guy anywhere on MSNBC or CNN or ABC? Are they quoting him in the Washington Post or the New York Times? Of course they’re not.

    Because Jeff Bezos, is the richest megalomaniac (criminal psychopath) in the world’s history who owns the Washington Post, and he’s in bed with the CIA to the tune of six hundred million dollars. And he sits on a Pentagon Board.

    So you know goddamn well the Washington Post is gonna be pro-war in Syria. And they are. Just like they were pro-war in Iraq the last two times, and they were pro-war in Libya. The United States media is ubiquitous in their rush to war before an investigation.

    Judah: “I always think of it this way. Like when you look at wars and you want to figure out if this is a just war or not. Because first of all war should never happen. But if it does it should be a last ditch option for survival you know. But it’s pretty much always rich guys starting a war and they send the poor guys out there to fight the war, you know, and now if Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and Warren Buffett at all, if all these billionaires are out there strapping on machine guns and going out device I’m like oh well maybe maybe this is Syria this is serious but like but until then I think you can basically assume well alright, somebody’s making a lot of money off of this. Yes. That’s what life is about it’s about making money.” [end quotes]

    And increasing in any way possible these psychopaths personal and collective power to rule over everyone. That’s not a democracy. That’s not freedom. That’s not sane. That’s not based on scientific evidence.

    That’s criminal psychopathology writ large. These people should be in jail not heading up political parties, ensconced in the Government and running giant global corporations either.

    Jimmy Quote @ 10:57

    It used to be illegal for the American intelligence community, the CIA, to do propaganda on Americans. Barack Obama lifted that restriction. Oh really? Oh yeah and he also got rid of, he also signed the National Defense Authorization Act and in section 1021, he signed it on New Year’s Eve, that Section 1021 repeals Habeas Corpus.

    So that’s our great Savior. That’s the Barack Obama. And now you know why we have Trump.

    And next to no effective action to solve the climate change issue in America or in the West generally plus the ongoing ‘propaganda’ led wars in Middle East specifically.

  36. 336
    Dan says:

    re: 335 ad nauseum.
    Wow, talk about lack of context. Just like a climate denier.
    President Obama:
    “The fact that I support this bill as a whole does not mean I agree with everything in it. In particular, I have signed this bill despite having serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists.

    Section 1021 affirms the executive branch’s authority to detain persons covered by the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) (Public Law 107-40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note). This section breaks no new ground and is unnecessary.

    Section 1022 seeks to require military custody for a narrow category of non-citizen detainees who are “captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” This section is ill-conceived and will do nothing to improve the security of the United States. The executive branch already has the authority to detain in military custody those members of al-Qa’ida who are captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the AUMF, and as Commander in Chief I have directed the military to do so where appropriate. I reject any approach that would mandate military custody where law enforcement provides the best method of incapacitating a terrorist threat. While section 1022 is unnecessary and has the potential to create uncertainty, I have signed the bill because I believe that this section can be interpreted and applied in a manner that avoids undue harm to our current operations.”

  37. 337
    Carrie says:

    329 we do not need more smartphones or any smartphones, and we definitely do not need more missile systems nor any missile systems to thrive as a species.

    If the above are a prerequisite for having electric vehicles I’d rather walk.

    The few hard truths shared by jrclarke is quite surprising to see here or anywhere these days.

  38. 338
    JRClarke says:

    336 ‘Wow, talk about lack of context.’

    Didn’t seem to cause you any harm. The world is full to the brim in a lack of context. So why only pick on me? What about Obama’s repeated lack of context and mythical/fraudulent beliefs / lies he kept telling the world?

    “I have signed the bill because I believe that this section can be interpreted and applied in a manner that avoids undue harm to our current operations – operations that are causing undue harm across the world, harm to our own nation, harm to the American people, causing undue deaths to uncountable thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians across the world as I sign this document.” So says the Nobel Peace Prize winner.

    Forest Trees – biased cherry picked Trees fail to offer a full and frank accounting of the Forest.

    Then there is Obama’s grandiose self-important but very detailed Climate Action Plan – the one he had published weeks after Donald Trump and the Republicans had already won the 2016 Election.

    How’s that for context? The paper it was printed on was a waste of good trees. Dream on.

  39. 339
    JRClark says:

    US Senate confirms a homophobic climate change denier with no scientific credentials to lead NASA/GISS
    https://boingboing.net/2018/04/20/senate-confirms-a-homophobic-c.html

    Great global leadership. Good luck with that (grin)

  40. 340
    JRClark says:

    Extreme weather becoming the new normal – study

    Weather has become more volatile and more extreme in the past 36 years, said the European Academies’ Science Advisory Council (EASAC) in a recent report.

    Flooding ‘events’ have quadrupled globally since 1980, while droughts, forest fires and extreme heatwaves have more than doubled in that time, said the council, which is made up of 27 national science academies in Europe, including the UK’s Royal Aacademy.

    Its report, published in March 2018 and which profiles a continuing trend from a previous study published in 2013, adds to evidence that climate change is creating more volatile weather, as well as higher temperatures.

    http://www.decanter.com/wine-news/climate-change-in-vineyards-extreme-weather-becoming-new-normal-388721/

    The Report released 22.03.2018 Extreme weather events in Europe
    Preparing for climate change adaptation: an update on EASAC’s 2013 study
    https://easac.eu/publications/details/extreme-weather-events-in-europe/

    examples from the report

    3.3. Attributing the contribution of climate change to specific extreme weather events

    However, events where climate change is concluded to have increased the probability (in some cases substantially) of extreme events include
    the following: Heatwaves in Australia (see, for example, Perkins and Gibson, 2015; Hope et al., 2016; Black et al.,2016); China (see, for example, Sun et al.,2014) and Europe (see, for example, Uhe et al. , 2016; King et al., 2015);
    Increased risks of wildfires (see, for example, Yoon et al., 2015; Abatzoglou and Williams, 2016);
    Extreme rainfall and associated floods (see, for example, van de Wiel
    et al., 2017; Pall et al. , 2011);
    Coastal flooding due to sea-level rise (see, for example, Sweet et al., 2016)

    4. Conclusion
    This update on some of the figures and underlying
    drivers of extreme weather raised in EASAC report
    number 22 (EASAC, 2013), confirms the earlier
    conclusions on the importance of increasing the
    adaptability of Europe’s infrastructure and social
    systems to a changing climate. However, evidence on
    AMOC and the effects of amplified Arctic warming
    continue to emerge from ongoing research and
    monitoring programmes.
    In view of the importance
    of these large-scale phenomena to Europe’s climate,
    EASAC will keep a watching brief on this and other
    findings to provide further updates in the future.
    https://easac.eu/fileadmin/PDF_s/reports_statements/Extreme_Weather/EASAC_Statement_Extreme_Weather_Events_March_2018_FINAL.pdf

    May be more data and evidence is required before Governments begin to act rationally and voters begin to vote rationally in the west and the US in particular? Yes I think so. We need more research to be done first.

    We would not want to act prematurely and get it all wrong.

  41. 341
    JRClark says:

    Jan 2018. Dr. Jim White, Director, Institute for Arctic and Alpine Research, University of Colorado lecture about “Physics, Ethics and Communication”
    Given at the Weather and Climate Summit, Breckenridge, Colorado, USA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgh3Obf4LeA

    Excellent information, holistic perspectives not only data. Interesting, useful and very easy to watch. Highly recommended. Close to 80,000 views in under 3 months.

  42. 342
    JRClark says:

    336 that’s an interesting take. I believe that confirmation-bias that leans towards cherry picking Trees fail to offer a full and frank accounting of the Forest. Some, like myself, might label such an approach as another form of psychological denial. Hard to know because no one can see inside another’s mind. No one can gauge accurately with the possible exceptions of lie redactor tests how much another has reconciled a fuller accounting of the Forest ie historical records facts data and so on. Whether it’s some unknown identity on the internet or a Barack Obama making judgments. All we have to go on is their word while knowing that people do lie.

  43. 343
    Killian says:

    From Unforced Variations:

    Re 163, Carrie and JRCLark,

    At the center of Regenerative Governance are egalitarian councils at neighborhood/town, city/area, regional (if needed), and bio-region levels.

    Circa 2011. The idea for egalitarian systems came out of ecovillages and Occupy for me, then later was reinforced by info on intact and mostly intact aboriginal cultures, which also work this way.

    My particular twists on the theme lie in two aspects. The first came to me during Occupy when I thought of neighborhood General Assemblies (GA) as the natural and necessary parallel to the city-wide GAs (later this was reinforced by knowledge of pre-Columbian Amazonian communities, as well as African and North American tribal networks). It was clear to me we could not govern a city, even just as a protest movement, that way. Individual neighborhood and personal pet issues were already clogging the agenda. So we set up a Work Group to explore the idea and get the first neighborhoods off the ground. Others later and/or concurrently started a state GA in Michigan. Depending on the size and type of bio-region, Regional GAs might also make sense.

    Important key elements of these GAs would be:

    * Some form of egalitarian
    * Autonomous, but responsible for not working against the other levels of governance

    A key to that second point is that the second point should be moot: Each level of GA is only responsible for issues dependent on SCALE. There is no actual hierarchy of power. No level of GA is more powerful than any other. Jurisdiction is solely by the size of the problem, by who is affected.

    E.g.: Vacant lot? Neighborhood. Most large infrastructure, e.g. bridges, street lights, etc., city. Watersheds, inter-city and international infrastructure, bio-region.

    However, in the process of decision-making, the other bodies that are affected by any given issue have a right to not be violated, so any decision that clearly negatively affects people at other levels must be resolved with that in mind.

    This, too, is somewhat moot in that everyone has a voice, and, the bio-regional GA members come from towns, cities, neighborhoods and have equal responsibility to those entities.

    In reality, the bio-regional network would be both fractal and like a web of mycelium with information flowing back and forth rather rapidly and in such a way as to keep the whole network healthy.

    You end up with some representative elements due to sheer size of the bodies. Neighborhoods would have 100% participation, but all other levels would have to be limited in size, with provision made for participation to flow rather freely. That is, it doesn’t matter who shows up from Neighborhood B1, only that someone does. B1 can send the same person for years or someone new every time. So, those most in tune or knowledgeable or passionate can participate.

    In nutshell, that is how you govern an egalitarian world and how you make simplicity simple, doable, and achieving a comfortable yield.

    If you search with “PermOccupy” or “Regenerative Governance” or visit my Deep Simplicity page on Facebook, you can find other things on this, including a graphic of the concept.

  44. 344
    Killian says:

    Re 239

    First, I suspect the “hundreds of years” bears a caveat: At current rates of use. But everybody who thinks tech can be had forever will conveniently forget the vast majority of the world do not live with EVs and the latest FancyPhone. Just getting the rest of the world on par would eat up a large chunk of those new resources. Hundreds of years suddenly becomes a couple hundred years, if you’re lucky because rates of use will not remain stable, but will increase exponentially.

    Second, note the lie: Semi-permanently. Even 700 years is nowhere near semi-permanent.

    Finally, this find may never even be exploited to any great degree given the rates of change we are seeing around the planet:

    While the discovery is exciting, experts point out there’s a long way to go before the staggering store of resources can actually be extracted and used. Tom Crafford, the Mineral Resources Program Coordinator at the USGS, tells CNN the mineral-rich mud will be difficult to reach. “The water gaps here are on the order of five or six kilometers, in the range of 16,000 to 20,000 feet,” he says. “That’s pretty severe. You’d really require some very sophisticated technology to operate at these kinds of depths.”

    “There is a lot of international interest in sea floor mining, but there has not been any commercialization of it yet and one day it could very well turn out to be a source of some of these critical minerals. But how far in the future is anyone’s guess.”

    From CNN.

  45. 345
    Hank Roberts says:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Commodities/Squid-flation-bites-Japan-as-catch-sinks-to-new-low

    … fishing operations are turning to other seafood to reduce their dependence on flying squid.

    But salmon, saury and mackerel have also experienced shortages in recent years, leaving fewer alternatives for fishers. Some food companies that specialize in squid have moved to processing potatoes as a side business….

  46. 346
    Killian says:

    The conservative and rigid thinkers among will likely consider this alarmism, but Hedges gets this right. Seneca Cliff?

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/chaco-canyon-chaco-earth/