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Forced Responses: May 2018

Filed under: — group @ 4 May 2018

The bimonthly open thread focused on climate solutions, mitigation and adaptation. Please keep this focused.

301 Responses to “Forced Responses: May 2018”

  1. 151

    #JR, #146–

    142 Kevin McKinney, my time is no less important than yours is.

    It may well be *more* valuable than mine, for all I know, from the viewpoint of a neutral 3rd party. I merely point out to you that some of your comments have been, for me, somewhat inscrutable. Make of it what you will, and carry on. Or not.

  2. 152
    Ray Ladbury says:

    Mr. KIA,
    Dude, Bush had been in office for 8 years before the caca hit the fan, and during much of that time he controlled one or more houses of Congress. Sorry, dude, not buyin’ it.

    As to gun violence: http://fortune.com/2017/11/07/domestic-violence-shootings-statistics/

    You know, it really is pointless to lie about this stuff when it is so easy to look up on line. Or maybe you need to refer to a news source that isn’t Faux.

  3. 153
    Hank Roberts says:

    Just for the record, the origin of that well-worn quote refers to orcs, not hobbits. I found a link to the original, which seems to be missing online.

    reposted from here: “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    http://www.ghostinthemachine.net/atlas-hemmed-and-hawed/

  4. 154

    N 149: Christianity stole the natural, anima- listic body and mind of man (and called it “devilish”), while modern, sheer materialistic/physicalistic science stole the soul of man.

    BPL: Huh? What? Come again?

  5. 155
    Nemesis says:

    @BPL, #154

    ” N 149: Christianity stole the natural, anima- listic body and mind of man (and called it “devilish”), while modern, sheer materialistic/physicalistic science stole the soul of man.

    BPL: Huh? What? Come again?”

    Huh? What? Didn’t christianity demonize the natural, animal body and mind? Yeees, it did :) Have some fun with Saint Paul (just ONE example of gazillion):

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7-8&version=NIV

    And christianity did it through BRUTE force (want delicate details?). And doesn’t deny modern materialistic/physicalistic science the existence of the soul? Yeees, it does for sure :) Now come again^^…

  6. 156
    Nemesis says:

    Just a tiny addendum to my last comment, have fun:

    http://www.jesuswalk.com/christ-power/flesh-sinful-nature.htm

    It’s exactly like I said:

    Christianity stole the natural animal body and mind of man through brute force and excessive brainwash. Anyway, christianity will soon be gone together with capitalism and I will not miss it.

  7. 157

    N: Christianity stole the natural animal body and mind of man through brute force and excessive brainwash.

    BPL: My brain smells April fresh thanks to new Brainwash(TM)!

    N: Anyway, christianity will soon be gone together with capitalism and I will not miss it.

    BPL: I think you’ll be waiting longer than you think.

  8. 158
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @ 149:

    “Christianity stole the natural, anima- listic body and mind of man (and called it “devilish”), while modern, sheer materialistic/physicalistic science stole the soul of man.

    I gather you mean Christianity kind of attempted to rule our natural physical instincts, our sexuality, and mental freedoms. I would agree it did with a series of commandments, parables and rules. However without some level of discipline like this over our aggressive instincts chaos would have prevailed. Progress is intrinsically related to rules and maintaining order. (I’m an athesit by the way, just looking at it historically)

    Unfortunately Christianity has some rather strange rules, unjustified rules, and inconsistencies and delighted in creating guilt about sexuality, and used a terrible make believe idea like hell to coerce people.

    I think you are conflating science with materialism. I think they are very, different things indeed. I suppose you could argue science stole the soul of man, and I would say this is a very good thing.

    Imho our souls have also been captured by materialism and currently the capitalist ethic, yet without material goods we perish. In practical terms we need some level of materialism and some way of producing those goods efficiently. Nobody has produced an alternative to capitalism that is efficient and doesn’t result in economic stagnation as happened in the USSR.

    Yet capitalism is destroying the planet and generates inequality and financial instability. This leaves two choices

    1) We accept stronger boundaries around capitalism by having good environmental laws, accepting lower growth rates, and adopting wider goals than just the profit motive. The bottom line is something has to change, and it is going to require less per capita consumption of resources, and a modified economic system.

    2) Leave the current economic and political system entirely and do your own thing. The trouble with this approach is best exemplified in the book “animal farm”. However I feel its still important that people experiment and try alternatives.

    The problems in both approaches are immense yet I cannot see any other alternative approaches.

  9. 159
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #185

    ” I gather you mean Christianity kind of attempted to rule our natural physical instincts, our sexuality, and mental freedoms. I would agree it did with a series of commandments, parables and rules. However without some level of discipline like this over our aggressive instincts chaos would have prevailed. Progress is intrinsically related to rules and maintaining order. (I’m an athesit by the way, just looking at it historically).”

    Please don’t forget the torture of inquisition, the mass murder of indigenous people, the christian colaboration with nazi germany (killing disabled people ect in the name of a “clean population, pleasing in the sight of god”) ect ect ect. And please don’t forget the christian fight against science (the trial vs Galileo Galilei, the monkey trial against the science of evolution ect). Now where’s the “level of discipline” you talk about? Do I really need you to teach the history of christianity? All the sex scandals among bishops and popes, the murder clique of the Borgia, all the sexual child abuse? Now where’s that “level of discipline” you talk about? Ah well, you talk about “agressive instincts chaos” further on. Well, that’s what I see in christian history en masse.

    But let’s talk about honesty, dignity, ethics, reason, self discipline, consciousness ect. These things are as old as Homo SAPIENS and they still persist out there against or without christianity. Watch out for the socalled “herethics” like Giordano Bruno and countless others, who have been tortered and murdered by christianity. Watch out for native people, the greeks, even some romans, the egypts, the jews, the advaita, the Buddhists, the Jaina ect ect ect.

    ” I think you are conflating science with materialism. I think they are very, different things indeed. I suppose you could argue science stole the soul of man, and I would say this is a very good thing.”

    Well, luckily not all scientists are materialistic/physicalistic, but mainstream scientists are materialists. There are some scientists among the creme de la creme of science who are no materialists. You deny the human soul, so you are a materialist/physicalist, everything is just physics, chemistry, electricity, right? I don’t talk about the christian soul, I talk about something beyond matter, time, space, something beyond any institutionalized religion and science, within, not outside of you. But you don’t like that, that’s ok. You deny the soul. Just like I said:

    Materialistic/physicalistic science denies the soul.

    ” Imho our souls have also been captured by materialism and currently the capitalist ethic, yet without material goods we perish…”

    Now I’m confused. Do you deny the soul as a phenomenon beyond measurable matter, time, space or not?! Anyway, scientific materialism and economic/social materialism are two sides of the very same coin.

    ” In practical terms we need some level of materialism and some way of producing those goods efficiently. Nobody has produced an alternative to capitalism that is efficient and doesn’t result in economic stagnation as happened in the USSR.”

    And again that never dying “argument” that the USSR was evil and inefficient compared to capitalism :’D Like “See, communism was evil and inefficient, so capitalism is the only choice, the better choice” :’D That must be the legacy of the cold war, McCarthy era ect. But you need to realize, that communism wasn’t far away from capitalism, they weren’t far away from eachother:

    Scientific materialism, materilistic science, the denial of the human soul and spirituality, the imperative faith in technology, the rude exploitation and destruction of the environment, the corruption of the political caste ect ect ect, all these things were common in the long gone USSR as they are common in capitalism. And the elite always wins, while the planet, animals, plants, mice and man are being exploited, destroyed and murdered. For now, nigelj, for now.

    ” Yet capitalism is destroying the planet and generates inequality and financial instability.”

    Now we’ve come to terms.

    ” We accept stronger boundaries around capitalism by having good environmental laws, accepting lower growth rates, and adopting wider goals than just the profit motive. The bottom line is something has to change, and it is going to require less per capita consumption of resources, and a modified economic system.”

    This did not work in the past, it does not work in the present and it will not work in the future. I hear “Banking regulation! Justice! Equality! Environmental protecion! Progressive, intelligent, fair capitalism!” ect ect for my entire life, yet it didn’t happen, it does not happen and I tell you: It will not happen. Capitalism is built on egotism, competition and exploitation. There is no capital, no profit without egotism, competition and exploitation. To sum it up:

    Capitalism is a fraud, just like communism was a fraud.

    ” 2) Leave the current economic and political system entirely and do your own thing. The trouble with this approach is best exemplified in the book “animal farm”. However I feel its still important that people experiment and try alternatives.”

    Man, many people do their own business anyway, no matter if they vote or not. No political system can ever lock all people altogether, that’s the beauty of political systems and that’s the beauty of Homo Sapiens, the beauty of the Soul within Homo Sapiens.

    ” The problems in both approaches are immense yet I cannot see any other alternative approaches.”

    You will, my brother as a part of the species called Homo Sapiens, you will, at the latest when capitalism will be just as dead as communism.

    ” True knowledge is not attained by thinking. It is what you are; it is what you become.”

    ― Sri Aurobindo

    ” Live according to Nature, runs the maxim of the West; but according to what nature, the nature of the body or the nature which exceeds the body? This first we ought to determine.”

    ― Sri Aurobindo

  10. 160
    Nemesis says:

    @BPL, #157

    ” N: Christianity stole the natural animal body and mind of man through brute force and excessive brainwash.

    BPL: My brain smells April fresh thanks to new Brainwash(TM)!”

    What kind of brainwash is that? Never heard of it. I don’t follow any specific religion nor philosophy nor political party, I grew up in the streets like a wolf, I follow my animal instincts, I follow the Laws of the Wilderness, I follow the Laws of Nature and myself, nobody else :)

    ” N: Anyway, christianity will soon be gone together with capitalism and I will not miss it.

    BPL: I think you’ll be waiting longer than you think.”

    Oh, believe it or not, I waited for a lot of things to happen and now they are here, burning it’s urgency into mans flesh literally and undeniable. Let’s see, who is more resistant, the thermometer or christianity and capitalism :) Dies diem docet.

  11. 161
    Al Bundy says:

    Ray says it is pointless to lie about stuff that is ever so easy to look up online

    Dude, did you sleep through the 2016 USA election? Please read 1984 with Faux constantly droning in the background.

    The truth is pointless when winning means everything. People will win the fight against themselves in order to facilitate their team’s victory. Just turn on that amygdala, see red, and do the far right thing.

  12. 162
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @159,

    “Please don’t forget the torture of inquisition, the mass murder of indigenous people, the christian colaboration with nazi germany (killing disabled people ect in the name of a “clean population, pleasing in the sight of god”)…..”

    Yes terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. That was not the point of what you said originally about religion stealing our naturalistic animalistic body, or my response. I was attempting to point out that we are ultimately bound by rules, and religion played a part in that in the past, but that obviously doesn’t mean there aren’t alternatives to religious systems of rules. I am an athiest, but I have no interest in having a hate session over religion.

    Yes good point other civilisations had systems of ethics. I would add ancient Greece if you read Aristotle, China had an elaborate system etc.

    “You deny the human soul, so you are a materialist/physicalist, ”

    I deny the soul in the conventional religious sense of life after death, and I use the term in the general alternative sense of the essence of a person as an individual. My comments are made in that sense. I’m not able to mind read your personal definition of the term, which you have not explained terribly clearly, but I sort of get the general idea.

    Regarding your other post. I’m not sure we as humans are interconnected in usable, functional ways by the brains electrical energy or quantum entanglement, but I do believe the Gaia hypothesis may have merit that the universe is alive and a single organism, but I digress…….

    “Anyway, scientific materialism and economic/social materialism are two sides of the very same coin.”

    I disagree. Science is about understanding how the world works, and that includes humans deepest inner natures, and discovering whether they have a soul of any kind at all. Otherwise the idea of a soul is pure speculation. Materialism is concern with the acquisition and ownership of things. Theres a huge difference between curiousity about the world and the use of materials.

    If you are talking about a non material realm (or higher power or force) that is neither defined by conventional religion, or currently explained by science, then such a thing cannot be ruled out, but I believe only scientific investigation can discover the nature of such a thing. Otherwise its speculation and goes nowehere.

    “And again that never dying “argument” that the USSR was evil and inefficient compared to capitalism :”

    No I’m not saying exactly this. I’m saying communism in that form was economically inefficient but both systems have evil in them and environmental failings. Communism did also have some strengths as well. But wheres you alternative to capitalism that is fundamentally different, and doesn’t fall into the same category as communism?

    ” We accept stronger boundaries around capitalism by having good environmental laws… etc…” This did not work in the past, it does not work in the present and it will not work in the future. I hear “Banking regulation! Justice! Equality! Environmental protecion! Progressive, intelligent, fair capitalismect ect for my entire life, yet it didn’t happen, it does not happen and I tell you: It will not happen. ”

    Fair comments, but we may just have to try a lot harder. Give it some time, because it takes time to turn large ships around.

    “Capitalism is built on egotism, competition and exploitation.”

    It certanly exploits these things, but Ego is part of human nature, and competition is not always bad thing. We just have to contain and discipline these things better to mitigate their negative side. I feel we either learn this, and modify capitalism accordingly, or control it better, or the whole capitalis thing will collapse, and it may be replaced by anarchy, global conflict, and chaos.

    I meant by people leaving the current system those that start interesting alternative communities, organic farms, and the like. Maybe these sorts of communities could provide an alternative to capitalism, but the risk is if they become large and connected they will morph back into capitalism, and if they remain small they may not be technologically viable at anything much more than subsistance levels, however experiments are always useful, and could lead to something unique and innovative.

  13. 163

    Re.: Christianity, modern science, soul, body, spirit, etc.

    Sorry, too OT here even for me… not going there!

  14. 164
    Nemesis says:

    Brethren and sistren, let us pray now, behold!:

    ” Trump Cabinet Bible Study Teaches About The ‘False Religion of Radical Environmentalism’ – God will “sustain our world’s ecosystem.”

    ” To think that man can alter the Earth’s ecosystem— when God remains omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent in the current affairs of mankind— is to more than subtly espouse an ultra-hubristic, secular worldview relative to the supremacy and importance of man… The biblically informed public servant must therefore order his thinking in light of God’s revealed hierarchy in creation… To allow fish to govern the construction of dams, endangered species to govern power plants, flies to govern hospitals, or kangaroo rats, homes, is to miss the clear proclamation of God in Genesis… To spend time with a friend, a colleague, a person who has a faith focus on how we do our job, whether it’s through prayer or God’s word and to encourage one another in that regard is so, so important, and we have that in our Cabinet…”

    https://www.scienceaf.com/trump-cabinet-bible-study-teaches-about-the-false-religion-of-radical-environmentalism

    Never allow fish to govern the construction of dams :-> Amen.

  15. 165
    Hank Roberts says:

    But let’s talk about honesty, dignity, ethics, reason, self discipline, consciousness ect.

    Must we? Rather hard to quantify.

  16. 166
    Al Bundy says:

    Nemisis,
    You’re certainly the outspoken type. Well, I’ll bite. Every Christian I’ve ever met cherishes the eternal torture of innocent Egyptian children. Those who believe in the power of prayer would never pray/demand, “Let THEIR people go.”.

    BPL, have you ever felt compassion for all the innocents in Hell enough to demand that the Great Torturer stop being the most evil entity imaginable?

    Nope, Christians worship their deity because they believe that such worship will protect them from the sadist they adore. That’s their recruiting line,” My deity will torture you forever if you don’t join my church so don’t be a fool. God loves you so much that he’ll torture you forever if you exercise your freedom of religion. “

  17. 167
    mike says:

    Daily CO2

    May 22, 2018: 410.05 ppm
    May 22, 2017: 410.03 ppm

    flattish day, noisy number, but still beautiful

    May 13 – 19, 2018 411.86 ppm
    May 13 – 19, 2017 410.13 ppm
    May 13 – 19, 2009 388.88 ppm

    Cheers

    Mike

  18. 168
    Nemesis says:

    What I’m trying to say is:

    Man needs to evolve in the first place, not science, not gdp and profit. Man needs to ecolve psychologically, mentally, ethically, culturally, socially inside. Í love science whit it’s merciless, cold rationality, causality and logic, Click clack like a clockwork, like a machine, like a power, a universal, undeniable power, the power of facts, cold facts. I love that, because it sets an ultimate limit to man, science says:

    ” Anthropogenic climate heating is a cold, rational, scientific fact, no tricks, no fake, merciless and cold like the wilderness out there, click clack like a machine, eating and being eaten, the cooking pot of Nature, you better watch out. But if you want tricks, fiddling your numbers, faking your limits, dreaming in la la land, then your very own logic and faked rationality will turn against you and you will get into real trouble, into deep, deep shit, you will get the real taste of the laws of Nature, science for real, Nature as a Beast that will stomp you into annihilation like nothing.”

    That’s the exact situation we are in. Therefore I love science resp. the laws of Nature. Now, if you have capitalistic monkeys, running around for profit and power all day long and you give them science and therefore technology at hand, what will happen? They will abuse science and technology, they will abuse it for what’s in it in the first place: Power, profit, money and they will fiddle the numbers, they will juggle and gamble, monkeys with nuclear and financial weapons of mass destruction.

    You talk about regulation? These guys have some real fun as soon as they hear that term and they will sit with these monkey politicians and talk about monkey regulations behind closed doors once again and have their fun. I remember the last crash 2008. What a farce, what a spectaculum during the hearings in the US congress. The system gives a fuck about regulations. The monkey mafia is not interested in funny regulations. That’s a cold fact.

    So… evolve inside, grow up beyond monkeyman, no more competition and profit, no more sick hoarding of funny money, but teamwork and sharing or die out as a species. That’s a cold, scientific fact, I bet :)

  19. 169
    Mr. Know It All says:

    113 and 137 and 148 – all by nigelj

    Found this video made especially for you:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1r1yECONZE

    Have you noticed those ocean waters getting deeper around NZ lately?

  20. 170
    Nemesis says:

    Ethics, I talked about ethics. What do I mean by that? Some “April fresh Brainwash(TM)” like BPL implied? No. Some old or new religion or philosophie? No. My personal ethics is as simple as that:

    Everything I do will come back to me one way or another, there’s a cause and there’s an effect. To me, this is simple causality, scientific causality, click clack like a machine, it’s The Laws of Nature at work literally. That’s my simple ethics.

  21. 171
    Mr. Know It All says:

    152 – Ray

    Please feel free to contact the men who admit that it was their fault and tell them “No, it really wasn’t”. Watch as they admit fault:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314

    On gun crime, yes it is known that DV is a predictor of other crimes, that’s why if you are convicted of DV you cannot buy a gun. Here’s the form – note question 11, parts i and h.
    https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

    Back on the topic of AGW, we had some hot weather here in the Pacific Northwest a few weeks ago – high 80s, maybe some 90s. But now we’re back to high 60s to high 70s – that’s better!

  22. 172
    Carrie says:

    A single energy flow chart depicting resources and their use represents vast quantities of data. Energy resources included solar, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, geothermal, natural gas, coal, biomass, and petroleum. Energy flow diagrams change over time as new technologies are developed and as priorities change.

    https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy

    ‘Rejected Energy’ on a chart means wasted energy.
    https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2017_United-States.png

    https://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/26/us-wastes-61-86-of-its-energy/

  23. 173

    N 159: mainstream scientists are materialists.

    BPL: I am a mainstream scientist and a born-again Christian. To Hell with your stereotypes.

  24. 174
    Nemesis says:

    Btw, Trump’s climate deniel is a fake denial, he knows the science very well, he knows, what’s coming. American presidents are entertainers, showmen, entertaining the public like court jesters. The real power sits in the Pentagon and the Pentagon declared climate heating officially as a threat to national security several times. “The project for the new american century” has been planned since around 9/11. Obama, the climate saviour/leader of the world demolished the US co2 balance when he turned to methane gas, it’s all smoke and mirrors. The US deep state gives a shit about Paris agreement, the US is doing her own ugly policy. You will see the world community fall apart over anthropogenic climate heating literally. Welcome to the real shit.

  25. 175
    Dan says:

    re: 171. “Back on the topic of AGW, we had some hot weather here in the Pacific Northwest a few weeks ago…”

    Wow, in one phrase you prove you really have no clue about AGW. Here is a clue: Talking about the weather is not climate. It does not get more absolutely fundamental or basic than that. Climate refers to time-periods of at least 30 years. As has been pointed out countless times. So your reference to the weather in the Pacific Northwest has absolutely nothing to do with “the topic of AGW”. Whatsoever.

  26. 176
    Mr. Know It All says:

    172 – Carrie
    A very rough visual analysis of the charts indicates that when there is a big fat red line(nukes) or dark blue line(hydro), that the lines for light blue (NG), black (coal), and dark green (oil) are generally smaller.

  27. 177
    Carrie says:

    165
    Hank Roberts says:
    re ‘But let’s talk about honesty, dignity, ethics, reason, self discipline, consciousness ect.’

    Must we? Rather hard to quantify.

    Not if you’re intelligent enough smart enough wise enough genuinely human enough to use the right Yardstick! Some people …….

  28. 178
    nigelj says:

    Mr. Know It All @169,

    “Have you noticed those ocean waters getting deeper around NZ lately?”

    Our climate agency NIWA has documented significant sea level rise over the last 100 years at approximately same the rate as the global average. We are already getting damaging impacts especially at high tide.

    Sea level rise does vary from city to city, because our geology is quite active, with land subsidence or uplift in various places, but even the most conservative predictions project sea level rise will increasingly overwhlem such factors. We face serious problems because many of our cities are coastal, and some are quite low lying as below.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935975

    Thank’s for the video on gun violence, however I live in New Zealand not Australia.

    I think she makes some fair points, but she claims the decline in gun deaths after Australia had that gun recall of illegal fire arms was just random chance because things go “up and down”. This is nonsensical, and in complete contradiction to her emphasis that rules are important. Its just exactly what I expected would happen, and she provides no specific research link to back up her claim.

    We have a lot of hunters in NZ and my sense is most people respect them and don’t regard it as a bad thing, or that gun ownership is bad.

    Certain things are clear. The states in america with the tightest gun control laws have the lowest incidence of gun deaths as below. I think there has to be cause and effect.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/states-with-strict-gun-laws-have-fewer-firearms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html

    Conceal and carry states mostly have higher gun deaths after the law was introduced. States with looser conceal and carry laws have more gun deaths.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2017/10/19/states-with-looser-concealed-carry-laws-have-more-gun-deaths-study-says/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d8867908b503

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/right-to-carry-gun-violence/531297/

    Most large mass shootings in the modern era do use semi automatics. This is certainly the case in America for the big school shootings.

    The answers to the problem are on this data: Sensible, tight gun regulation and eliminate semi automatics. Its about minimising the problem, while making sure decent law abiding people can access guns for hunting and self defence in extreme situations. Quite why anyone can’t grasp this is beyond me.

    Yes I appreciate the material about the second amendment being about having an armed citizenry in case the country is invaded, or the government goes compleley rogue and turns on its own people, but these things are unlikely, and theres a very fine line between this philosophy and insanity. Its STUPID to give guns to just anyone, and there need to have quite strict rules, especially given the lethal potency of guns. This does not conflict with the intent of the second amendment, which was to ensure government does not try to completely forbid gun ownership.

  29. 179
    Carrie says:

    Unsuccessful people criticize, have a sense of entitlement, hold a grudge, take all the credit, blame others for their failures, watch TV every day, don’t keep a journal, think they know it all, fear change, fly by the seat of their pants, operate from a transactional perspective, talk about people, secretly hope others fail, hoard information and data, don’t know what they want to be, never set goals, and exude anger. And they don’t read nearly enough.

    Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others, give other people credit for their victories, talk about ideas, read everyday, accept responsibility for their failures, keep a journal, want others to succeed, share information and data, keep a to-be list, set goals and develop life plans, exude joy, embrace change, keep a to-do list, learn continuously and operate from a transformational perspective.

    http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/

  30. 180
    Nemesis says:

    [edit]

  31. 181
    Nemesis says:

    @BPL, #174

    I confused you with nigelj, you are no self-proclaimed atheist like I said in my last comment, you are, in your own words, a confessing born-again christian :) So you believe in a human soul beyond death, you are no scientific materialist like most mainstream scientists. Ok :) Now, what do you think, will god save us and capitalism from climate heating, at least will he save the christians? I don’t think so…

    https://youtu.be/W9mhsW5aWJM

  32. 182
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @164

    ” Trump Cabinet Bible Study Teaches About The ‘False Religion of Radical Environmentalism’ – God will “sustain our world’s ecosystem.”

    Interesting link. So in other words we can apparently destroy the planet, because “god will fix it”. And the huge changes we have inflicted on ecosystems and physical systems are either imaginary, or are secretly being carried out by god, so they are ok somehow.

    No, I don’t think so. Talk about the ultimate in wishful thinking.

  33. 183
    Al Bundy says:

    [edit. This is not the place. Sorry.]

  34. 184
    nigelj says:

    Dan @177, he is trolling. He raises this ridiculous rubbish conflating weather with climate about once every two months. I think realclimate need an automatic programme that detects such rubbish, and posts an automatic response.

  35. 185
    nigelj says:

    Carrie @181, “Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others….accept responsibility for their failures….. other good stuff.”

    Yes true, and it would be nice to see more of this from you in what you post. Because its conspicuously lacking :)

  36. 186
    David B. Benson says:

    If we might return to partial climate related solutions:

    A website which takes the production and distribution of electricity seriously, with no preconceptions about so-called renewables, is

    Energy Matters
    euanmearns.com

    I have learned quite a bit there, with some places where I can contribute. I encourage readership and possible communication to the decision makers of your locale.

  37. 187
    Carrie says:

    178
    Mr. Know It All says:
    26 May 2018 at 3:47 PM

    172 – Carrie
    A very rough visual analysis of the charts indicates that when there is a big fat red line(nukes) or dark blue line(hydro), that the lines for light blue (NG), black (coal), and dark green (oil) are generally smaller.

    ………………

    Hi, I am not clear on you’re meaning there. If you use this chart as an example https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2017_United-States.png

    would mind noting again what you are pointing out please?

    What I think you may be saying above, is the NG coal etc FF colored lines going left to right from the Boxes are “thinner” then they should be relevant to the “width” of the nukes hydro lines? Is that saying what you mean?

    Also if you click on the image it should expand larger. I measured the width of the Nukes Red @ 2cm thick, and compared that to the top section of the light blue Gas @ 9.54 which measured @ 2.2 cm think (roughly). It seems to be at scale.

    But maybe you meant something else. let me know, thanks.

  38. 188
    JR says:

    OK then. Out of Africa even.

    Useful meaningful evidence based information is available from this website.

    http://www.resourcepanel.org/reports/assessing-global-resource-use

    The way in which societies use and care for natural resources fundamentally shapes the well-being of humanity, the environment and the economy.

    Better and more efficient use of natural resources can be one of the most cost-efficient and effective ways to reduce impacts on the environment, while also achieving the socio-economic objectives of international sustainable development and climate goals. Viable pathways exist for society to undertake such decoupling of economic growth from natural resource use and environmental impacts. But how can we get there?

    Environmental and sustainability policies require a new evidence base that makes it possible to monitor the scale of the physical economy, that is – the amount of material, energy, water and land used and emissions generated in making, using and providing goods, services and infrastructure systems.

    This publication provides an assessment of the state, trends and outlook of global natural resource use, with a focus on material resources as part of the evidence base for policymaking for sustainable consumption and production.

    The report pinpoints seven strategies for system-wide pollution reduction and more sustainable resource use throughout the economy, including consideration of appropriate policy instruments and good practice examples from cities and countries around the world.

    A special feature on the link between resource use, infrastructure, air pollution and human health in cities is included.

    • IRP (2017). Assessing global resource use: A systems approach to resource efficiency and pollution reduction. Bringezu, S., Ramaswami, A., Schandl, H., O’Brien, M., Pelton, R., Acquatella, J., Ayuk, E., Chiu, A., Flanegin, R., Fry, J., Giljum, S., Hashimoto, S., Hellweg, S., Hosking, K., Hu, Y., Lenzen, M., Lieber, M., Lutter, S., Miatto, A., Singh Nagpure, A., Obersteiner, M., van Oers, L., Pfister, S., Pichler, P., Russell, A., Spini, L., Tanikawa, H., van der Voet, E., Weisz, H., West, J., Wiijkman, A., Zhu, B., Zivy, R.

    A Report of the International Resource Panel. United Nations Environment Programme. Nairobi, Kenya.

    Multiple reports are available for download. Check it out if you are one of the few interested in learning about new ideas, the state of the evidence, and up-to-date knowledge.

  39. 189
    JR says:

    An example of something any social fiscal conservative, capitalist entrepreneur, economic realist, higher productivity enthusiast, smaller government and lower taxation advocate or Libertarian could get behind.

    ASSESSING GLOBAL RESOURCE USE
    A systems approach to resource efficiency and pollution reduction
    http://www.resourcepanel.org/file/905/download?token=AUZd_YDD

    Page 10 – PDF
    What can a systems approach to natural resources tell us?

    Focusing on single resources, single economic sectors or
    single environmental and health impacts will not achieve the
    collective vision of the Sustainable Development Goals, and
    may instead cause harm if the interactions between each of
    the goals are not considered. Analysis linking the way natural
    resources are used in the economy to their impacts on the
    environment (pollution, deforestation, biodiversity loss and
    water depletion) and people (health, well-being, wealth and so
    on) across time requires the adoption of a systems approach.

    A systems approach connects the flow of resources – from
    extraction through to final waste disposal – with their use
    and impact on the environment, economies and societies
    at each stage of the life-cycle. The approach can be used to
    identify key leverage points; develop resource targets; design
    multi-beneficial policies that take into account trade-offs
    and synergies; and steer a transition toward sustainable
    consumption and production and infrastructure systems.

    The International Resource Panel assesses natural
    resources from a systems perspective in keeping with the
    DPSIR analytical framework for human-nature interactions.
    The framework looks at multiple drivers of resource use
    and resulting pressures on the natural environment as
    determinants of the state of the environment. The state
    of the environment in turn impacts human wellbeing and
    socio-economic systems that rely on it, thus requiring a
    response strategy to influence key drivers, and direct the
    resulting pressure, state and impacts to desired levels
    through an iterative and continuous process.

    The use of natural resources, and their related impacts,
    are increasingly transboundary, largely due to trade and
    globalization. As a result, national accounting metrics that
    focus solely on a nation’s direct natural resource use do not
    fully represent the resources and associated impacts that
    contribute to economic activity. The concept of footprints
    that captures resource use across borders is therefore a
    critical tool in a systems approach. Footprints can measure
    different types of pressures, including resource use, pollution
    emissions and environmental impacts. Four footprints
    on resource use (materials, land, water and fossil energy)
    have been identified as determining the magnitude of most
    specific environmental impacts.

  40. 190
    Ray Ladbury says:

    Mr. KIA once again deliberately misses the point. Dude, no one said that guns cause domestic violence. What they do is magnify the consequences. Same with school shootings. Talk to a trauma surgeon about the difference in mortality between knife wounds and GSWs.

  41. 191
    Nemesis says:

    [edit – ok enough. This is not the place to be analysing Mein Kampf]

  42. 192
    Solar Jim says:

    Carrie @ 172. You seem to be parroting outdated “conventional thinking” from military-industrial systems (like the US DOE). If one were to list Forms of Energy and Forms of Matter then forms of matter mined from the lithosphere should not be displayed as “energy flow,” but instead as indicated on a “matter flow chart.”

  43. 193
    Hank Roberts says:

    Carrie says:
    26 May 2018 at 5:54 PM
    165
…Not if you’re intelligent enough smart enough wise enough genuinely human enough to use the right Yardstick! Some people …….

    181
    Carrie says:
    26 May 2018 at 8:28 PM
    Unsuccessful people criticize …

    Mind the gap.

  44. 194
    Scott E Strough says:

    Nemesis,
    I can’t answer for Nigelj. However I am most certainly a Christian and I can certainly answer the Biblical inspired Christian answer to your question in general.

    How should a Christian view climate change?

    Revelation 11:18
    “The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    So the good steward Christian doesn’t fear because he has not contributed to harming the Earth. He knows God will punish those who rebel against God’s plan, so will do his part to make sure the bit of land he has charge over is not ruined by and/or contributing to man made global warming.

    The Christian who has studied the Bible a bit deeper will try to protect God’s eternal regenerating gift to Mankind, but knows if those destroying the Earth become too powerful, God has in the past and will again in the future intervene in this manner:

    Leviticus 26 : 19

    “I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze. ‘Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

    ‘If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. ‘I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

    ‘And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. ‘I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. ‘When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

    ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. ‘Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. ‘I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. ‘I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. ‘I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. ‘You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste.

    ‘Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. ‘All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it. “

    Now of course the heathen skeptic will claim there is no God and thus no punishment. They would be wrong on both counts.

    “Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe.“ Freeman Dyson

    So for those who don’t believe in God, that won’t change what happens, only how what happens is attributed. The famine, disease and collapse of civilization into war and mass migration of refugees due to man made global warming is already started. You can attribute it to God’s wrath for being a poor steward of the land, or you can attribute it to the natural laws of physics, but either way only the fool denies it is real. Here is a scientific perspective in easy to read articles from Scientific American:

    Climate Change Hastened Syria’s Civil War https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-hastened-the-syrian-war/

    The Ominous Story of Syria’s Climate Refugees https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ominous-story-of-syria-climate-refugees/

    Syria’s Climate Refugees https://www.scientificamerican.com/report/syrias-climate-refugees/

    Political Climates: Drought and Conflict in Syria https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/food-matters/political-climates-drought-and-conflict-in-syria/

    Climate Change and Rising Food Prices https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-and-rising-food-prices-heightened-arab-spring/

    Yes, Some Extreme Weather Can Be Blamed on Climate Change https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/yes-some-extreme-weather-can-be-blamed-on-climate-change/

    Weather Disasters Can Fuel War in Volatile Countries https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weather-disasters-can-fuel-war-in-volatile-countries/

    There are plenty more, but the question for the Christian would be how does what is happening right now due to climate change vary from what God has promised as punishment to those refusing to follow his laws, including but not limited to stewardship? There really is no difference except that in both cases it will get worse, much worse.

    So it really doesn’t matter what your religion might be. Doesn’t matter if you are atheist or agnostic. Same result, and that result is already beginning!

    However, God is also forgiving;

    2 Chronicles 7:14

    “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”

    Science seems to agree here too:

    Can we reverse global warming? https://www.quora.com/Can-we-reverse-global-warming/answers/34310028

    And to sum it all up for both the Christian and the scientist, my favorite “good steward” with great background gospel music!

    https://vimeo.com/189494582

    And my favorite climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe is a professor and director of the Climate Science Center at Texas Tech University. She is a lead author for the U.S. National Climate Assessment and works with cities and states around North America, to help figure out what climate change means for us in the places where we live.

    In 2014, Katharine was named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by TIME, and one of 100 global thinkers by Foreign Policy. In 2015, the Huffington Post named her as one of the top 10 leaders reshaping the environmental movement. She just happens to be a Christian too! Lets see what she says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvr8WJwKcIA

    I will also say that trying to push an atheist agenda onto the problem of AGW will only result in less people believing it is real and more people correctly seeing it as simply a platform for pushing your personal agenda on those not willing to go there. As such you are feeding by far the main resistance to fixing the problem. You are causing far more harm than good and are a major part of the problem falling directly into the plot devised by the Merchants of Doubt.

    A persons religion is completely irrelevant to AGW. Full Stop. We are all in this together. Pushing your personal beliefs into the issue only obfuscates the path forward.

  45. 195
    Nemesis says:

    @Scott E Strough, #194

    ” I will also say that trying to push an atheist agenda onto the problem of AGW will only result in less people believing it is real and more people correctly seeing it as simply a platform for pushing your personal agenda on those not willing to go there.”

    Well, I am no christian, but I’m no atheist either. Like I said earlier,I don’t have any political nor religious agenda, I am a lone wolf, no agenda at all. Call me agnostic, if you like :)

    The truth, reality will always win, we can agree on that at least I guess, I trust fully in the laws of Nature ;)

  46. 196
    Nemesis says:

    @Scott E Strough, #194

    ” How should a Christian view climate change?

    Revelation 11:18
    “ The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” ”

    Well, there’s a lot of talking in the Revelation about death and destruction, but not a single word about Heat, about antropogenic induced climate heating. I prefer to look at that heat, at that Fire from a scientific perspective, along the lines of the laws of Nature, not from a christian perspective. Trump, for instance, looks at it from a christian perspective, doesn’t he? Is this the way Trump looks at it? Yes, it is. It’s the right wing view of Armageddon:

    ” Why do US evangelicals support Trump’s Jerusalem policy?

    “… They believe there will be, ultimately, an apocalyptic end of the age,” says Prof Rollston. “Replete with the Battle of Armageddon, the Mark of the Beast, these sorts of things…”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42402350

    Well then, good luck everyone.

  47. 197
    nigelj says:

    Scott Strough @194 good comments and bible quotes, but this heathen religious sceptic has a nit pick, or a quibble. While your first example about punishing those who destroy the earth seems clear enough, a variety of other bible passages have been used to justify environmental destruction, such as statements that people have dominion over the earth and it’s plants and beasts (or something like this).

    In other words, the bible is somewhat open to interpretation, and not everyone is going to reach the same sensible conclusions as you or apply the same reasonable logic, or read the thing “as a whole” discerning the real spirit and underlying intent.They will cherrypick what passage suits their desires with gay abandon, like our climate denialist brothers and sisters. What do you do about that, because it seems rather prevalent and entrenched? A thorny question I suppose.

    Katherine Hayhoe is great at trying to make people see sense, and I agree we shouldn’t bring a persons religion or atheism into the climate question, other than the sorts of philosophical discissions here. It should be purely about physics and logical solutions.

  48. 198
    nigelj says:

    Solar Jim @192, eh? What? You are being somewhat pedantic. While energy and matter are different things, we call fuel sources energy as a useful shorthand to describe their main collective purpose.

  49. 199
    Phil Scadden says:

    Further to Scott Strough, you add:
    “If you live by my decrees and obediently keep my commandments, I will send the rains in their seasons, the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit. You will thresh until the grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting time; you’ll have more than enough to eat and will live safe and secure in your land.” Leviticus 26 :3-5

    Now about those commendments on coveting, greed, doing justice to the poor? Consumerism and greed have got us into this mess. And yet, study after study would say those goods we are desparate about dont make us happy. And when those that are vunerable to climate change are those that have contributed least to its cause, then clearly a justice matter is before us.

    If you actually lived biblically, then you would also be living sustainably.

  50. 200
    nigelj says:

    JR @189. I’m a strong supporter of this sustainable development goals framework, but that material you copied and pasted, while good in undelying intent was just vague waffly, jargonistic, empty platitudes and buzzwords. It’s exactly an example of the writing style that conservatives and libertarians don’t connect with and never will. The stuff at 188 is good content as well, but much the same in style.