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Forced Responses: May 2018

Filed under: — group @ 4 May 2018

The bimonthly open thread focused on climate solutions, mitigation and adaptation. Please keep this focused.

298 Responses to “Forced Responses: May 2018”

  1. 201
    Carrie says:

    185
    nigelj says:
    26 May 2018 at 10:44 PM

    Carrie @181, “Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others….accept responsibility for their failures….. other good stuff.”

    Yes true, and it would be nice to see more of this from you in what you post. Because its conspicuously lacking :)

    ……………

    Got a list of my failures handy? I bet it’s shorter than my own list!

    Now it seems you skipped this bit by design or accident:

    “Unsuccessful people criticize and talk about people”

    See how this works? Look up Elanor Roosevelt when next you’re bored. I’m not perfect or the Dalai Lama either. So what? Take what you can from wisdom shared and reject the rest. I truly do not care that much about it nor your most important opinions about life, science or me.

    See how this works?

  2. 202
    Carrie says:

    193 Hank Roberts says: “Mind the gap.”

    Good advice. Forever in your debt.
    How could I have been so stupid to miss that?

    ……………..

    194 Scott E Strough; that’s not too bad a response. Liked the Syria example.

    “A persons religion is completely irrelevant to AGW. Full Stop. We are all in this together.”

    So true.

    “Pushing your personal beliefs into the issue only obfuscates the path forward.”

    Good luck with separating people’s personal beliefs from any issue. Denying they have them and are inseparable nay integral to being a whole human being is an expressway to nowhere.

    ……………

    192 Solar Jim I agree. Being a parrot is no solution. Good point.

    …………….

    188/189 JR,

    Inspiring to see that kind of work and mature thoughtful responses to issues is going on in some places. Thanks.

    ………….

  3. 203
    JRClark says:

    This week, Gothenburg in Sweden played host to the first international conference on “negative emissions”.

    The three-day event brought together around 250 researchers at Chalmers University of Technology to discuss the different ways to remove CO2 from the atmosphere and store it on land, underground or in the oceans.

    The topics presented and debated ranged from “natural” solutions to the technologically advanced, through to the potential limitations and risks. Running parallel to the scientific discussions was a focus on the policy challenges.

    Eva Svedling, Sweden’s secretary of state for development and climate, marked the occasion by launching a public enquiry into the potential for forests, soil and bioenergy to provide carbon removal for the country. Sweden already has a legally binding target to reach net-zero carbon emissions by 2045.

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/negative-emissions-scientists-meet-sweden-first-international-conference

  4. 204
    Al Bundy says:

    Scott,
    I’m running my second year of agricultural tests on the basis of our independently arrived at and rather similar (from a liquid carbon, as you call it, perspective) techniques. (The major difference is that I’ve incorporated Hank’s thoughts)

    Let’s talk.

  5. 205
    Nemesis says:

    @Scott E Strough, #194

    Dude, you ask “How should a Christian view climate change?” and then you post lengthy quotes from the bible and then you say:

    ” A persons religion is completely irrelevant to AGW. Full stop.”

    I will go back to wonderful silence now, makes no sense whatsever to me anymore anyway, so yes, full stop for my part and good luck with your “revelation”.

  6. 206
    Al Bundy says:

    This Memorial Day, please work on solving climate change by honoring those who SERVE with bravery by volunteering without pay (which is the very definition of volunteer) in the Peace Corps. Political pawns just scarf up taxpayer funds that could have built a wind farm or liberated societies via the building of schools that educate and enable women. “Dumb as dirt” bombs are incredibly expensive. We simply don’t have enough time left to divert inventors and engineers who could be making productive advances to instead build useless advanced weapons. Please, don’t feed the problem by bowing down to testosterone-fueled destruction for the political advantage of politicians.

  7. 207
    Al Bundy says:

    Or change the mission. If the US military was 90% Corps of Engineers, imagine how much good the culture of honor could do. We’re squandering the human capital who sincerely want to help, but can’t because they’re funneled into death and destruction that only makes “them” hate “us” more.

    I wonder if any Republican has ever attempted to understand Jesus’ teachings. As I’ve read pastors’ thoughts, they believe that Jesus’ teachings would be nice, but no Republican would vote for Jesus for president. Me? I’d probably commit felonies by voting 10000 times for Jesus.

  8. 208
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @195, just for the record, while I’m an atheist this is regarding the God as portrayed in the Bible, and the Bible stories. There’s no evidence, too many contradictions, and its all totally implausible.

    I agree with Dawkins that there may be a God in the sense of some amazing power we simply don’t currently understand. This might be similar to your non material realm.

    But it seems to me only science can give any understanding of such powers or realms, because otherwise its just speculation and gut feeling. Yet I’m aware also of the obvious potential contradiction of a science that studies material things dealing with the non material.

    There’s an alternative explanation.There is evidence we are genetically hard wired to believe in a God, possibly as a survival mechanism, but this clearly doesn’t prove God exists and may just be a result of evolution. The same could possibly be true for beliefs in spirits or the non material in that we are genetically programmed to believe such things, but they may not exist.

    Either way I hear where you are coming from, and I respect your view.

  9. 209
    Al Bundy says:

    To sum it up, Germany’s greatest fear has traditionally been a two-front war. We can either “fight” climate change or we can create freedom fighters (their beliefs) / terrorists ,(your beliefs) Which fight would President Jesus engage?

    My belief is that Jesus would feel compassion and work to solve the issues that enrage “terrorists”. And seriously, to call a warrior who engages their enemy with the absolute knowledge that they will die for their cause a coward is putrid. As if civilians are more innocent than soldiers. Killing for your cause is stupid and counterproductive, but killing is killing. The US is just trying to set the rules for atrocity so the US gets a simple, easy win
    If the ‘rules” guarantee your death without harm to the other side, what link of ethics to rules is there when you’re convinced you’re right?

    Personally, someone who fights with overwhelming weapons might be legitimately considered a coward. A brave US military would eschew superior weapons and fight fair.

    And no, I’m not even slightly saying that US soldiers are not brave. Systemic issues don’t translate to individuals.

  10. 210
    nigelj says:

    Carrie @201

    “Got a list of my failures handy? I bet it’s shorter than my own list!”

    Ha ha probably. My own failings would make a long list, probably use up a forest or two.

    But you posted an article saying its wrong to criticise other people, and you and your doppleganger JR have been enormously “critical” of climate scientists recently and rather bluntly so. I’m just having a little dig.

    The advice in your little copy and paste is largely sensible enough and it covers all the bases. We need reminding from time to time.

    But the part “Unsuccessful people criticize and talk about people” doesn’t make sense. They do it more perhaps and take a more personal appraoch, but virtually everyone does their share of criticism. Gossip is part of our human nature, read the book “Homosapiens. A short history of Humankind by N Y Harari” (the best book you will read all year).

    But I would suggest truly successful people “should be” sparing, polite and accurate in their criticism, and focus on what people do and say, rather than who they are. But evil and wrong doing must be confronted with criticism, or it will flourish.

  11. 211
    JRClark says:

    210 nigelj, some one posts a little open-ended self-help saying tip so you and Hank turn it into personal put downs of the one who provided it. Sure makes sense in some universe. Logically this tells everyone what is wrong with you and Hank. You’ll argue and complain about anything and anybody no matter how disconnected from climate science it is.

  12. 212
    Mr. Know It All says:

    187 – Carrie

    What I was referring to are the charts on this page:
    https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy

    Scroll down thru all those little thumbnails. Look for charts with either a fat red line (nukes) or a chart with a fat blue line (hydro). For some of those charts, the nat gas and coal lines are fairly small.
    Some good examples:
    ID, IL, NH, NJ, NY, OR, PA, SC, TN, VA, VT, WA

    178 – nigelj
    I read your article on the rising sea levels. Time for people in low areas to start moving. It was a bad choice to build on land that low – same here in many places, Nalens being the most obvious. Low coastal land was doomed before AGW due to the occasional tsunami.

  13. 213

    AB: Your praise of Jesus is inconsistent with your denunciation of the Christian God, since Christians regard Jesus as God. Have you ever actually read what the man said?

  14. 214
    Hank Roberts says:

    … a little open-ended self-help saying tip …. no matter how disconnected from climate science …

    Indeed, such have been abundant lately here. This is:

    The bimonthly open thread focused on climate solutions, mitigation and adaptation. Please keep this focused.

  15. 215
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #208

    ” I agree with Dawkins that there may be a God in the sense of some amazing power we simply don’t currently understand. This might be similar to your non material realm.

    But it seems to me only science can give any understanding of such powers or realms, because otherwise its just speculation and gut feeling. Yet I’m aware also of the obvious potential contradiction of a science that studies material things dealing with the non material.”

    Hehe, all in all, Dawkins is some kind of materialistic/physicalistic science inquisitor. I’ve seen a lot of discussions with Dawkins, he appears to be quite arrogant in these discussions, Dawkins is a scientific materialist/physicalist through and through. Hard sciences like physics or chemistry ect just can’t give a real understanding of these realms, even if it could, it would make no sense to ordinary people. Religion, spirituality or whatever you might call it, is some existential psychological experience of Homo Sapiens within. There are scientific studies about these realms en masse, but these studies have been done by soft sciences like depth psychology and anthropology (studies of shamanism ect) ect. These studies show unmistakably that there is some spiritual realm within Homo Sapiens you can’t neglect. Even countless materialists have spiritual dreams at night or during near death experiences, that’s a fact.

    ” There’s an alternative explanation.There is evidence we are genetically hard wired to believe in a God, possibly as a survival mechanism, but this clearly doesn’t prove God exists and may just be a result of evolution. The same could possibly be true for beliefs in spirits or the non material in that we are genetically programmed to believe such things, but they may not exist.”

    Well, the term “god” is a matter of interpretation. Christianity eg says, omnipotent god is masculine, got a long white beard and lives in heaven, looking down on us, he doesn’t even need to respect his very own laws of nature ect. This interpretation of “god” is outdated thanks to science. So we need to interprete the term “god” in a new, enlightened way. To give you just a short interpretation I’m thinking of:

    ” I looked for God. I went to a temple and I didn’t find him there. Then I went to a church and I didn’t find him there. The I went to a mosque and I didn’t find him there. Then finally I looked in my heart and there he was.”

    – Rumi

    “God” is us, inside of everyone, “god” is manifested in the material/physical cosmos and in the invisible, immaterial cosmos within. To give a more hard science explanation of religious/spiritual realms resp experiences:

    ” Stevens suggests that DNA itself can be inspected for the location and transmission of archetypes. As they are co-terminous with natural life they should be expected wherever life is found. He suggests that DNA is the replicable archetype of the species.

    Stein points out that all the various terms used to delineate the messengers – ‘templates, genes, enzymes, hormones, catalysts, pheromones, social hormones’ – are concepts similar to archetypes. He mentions archetypal figures which represent messengers such as Hermes, Prometheus or Christ…”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

    See also this 3 minute talk:

    ” Jay Lakhani – We create god in our own image

    https://youtu.be/fz30g-oQ5zk

    Modern man needs to reconnect to these inner worlds through meditation, contemplation, art, communication, psychotherapy, whatever. Ancient man’s most important task has been to preserve the cosmic balance, to preserve the laws of nature within nature resp within man’s environment, not against it. And ancient man always had a perspective beyond any material death. That’s what modern man lost almost completely, as you can see regarding to the environmental devestation all around us.

  16. 216
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, addendum to my last comment:

    What I’m trying to say is that the ecological crises is rooted in a spiritual/psychological crisis. If man doesn’t grow up within, he can’t solve the ecological crisis. If bankers, politicians, managers ect don’t grow up within, then the ecological crisis cannot be solved. We live in a globalized world now, without a holistic view of the planet we cannot survive. We need to cooperate instead of capitalist competing, cooperation instead of capitalist competition. It just isn’t about the capitalistic/imperialistic “me against you, us against them” paradigm anymore. We will learn that quickly or we will vanish.

  17. 217
    Mr. Know It All says:

    How many deaths does it cost to power the world? Per this short article, over 500,000.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-29/how-many-deaths-does-it-cost-power-world

    Comments are excellent. I liked this one:
    “Gonna take a long shot here and propose that NO POWER would kill slightly more than 500k/yr.”

    Question for readers here. Totally hypothetical – probably never happen. IF new science, peer-reviewed and accepted by 97% of CC scientists, determined that AGW predictions of rising temperature were not correct, and that CO2 was not a problem, would you be happy about it? For me, the answer would be yes.

  18. 218
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @215 & 216, just remember psychology is a science, so this bears out what I’m saying in that science may cast some light on the non material realm. I did some psychology at university fwiw.

    The god we are possibly genetically hard wired to believe in is apparently a powerful sky god that we fear and who sets rules. It’s so common in so many cultures.

    Humans have formed ordered communities because of this unifying factor, and without the belief this may not have happened. Of course we have alternative things now that provide a sense of order, like the rule of law and systems of values and ethics.

    Personally I like your quotes on god, and the idea that god is inside us or is everything.

    Nothing wrong with medidation. I have done it to deal with anxiety and insomnia.

    And yes humanity needs to grow up. Here is something on the issue, copied and pasted:

    “The result of promoting self-interest and people having more freedom to believe and do as they please, will be a society that John Stuart Mill warned about in the following quote from “On Liberty” – “If society lets a considerable number of its members grow up mere children, incapable of being acted on by rational consideration of distant motives, society has itself to blame for the consequences.”

  19. 219
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj

    Let’ talk about the realm beyond time and space we mentioned earlier. On one hand we have our identification card, name, birthdate, adress, confession, gender, eyecolor, height, weight, dna data, what have you… (infinite opportunities^^). That’s what I call “the realm of measurable time and space”. But that’s just one side of the coin, the other side is beyond measurable time and space, things you can’t measure, these are the ominous “qualia” neurology talks about. Qualia are experiences of some sensory input, like a cup of tea for instance:

    You drink a cup of tea. Now, how does that tea you drink taste to you?

    Whatever you might say about the taste of that darjeeling first flush, there’s no way to measure the subjective taste of tea happening within the subject, because it’s a subjective experience (qualia), not an objective, scientifically measurable object in time and space. The taste of the tea happens beyond time and space, it’s irrational, try to catch the taste of tea with an electrone microscope, a hadron collider, some hubble telescope or whatever, you will not find it. But the taste of tea is there when you drink a cup of tea, hopefully. That’s what I call “the realm beyond time and space”, it has no exact “here” or “there”, no exact coordinates in time and space. Are you “within” your skin? Are you “within” your flesh and bones? Are you within the tongue tasting the tea? Are you within your brain? Or are you identical with your skin, flesh and bones or your identification card? No, just like the taste of tea, you are none of these, you are beyond time and space, just experiencing time and space within, but not being defined by time and space. Your body is your medium, your vehicle through time and space, but you are not your body. You are a Subject, not an object.

    ” My eyes already touch the sunny hill.
    going far ahead of the road I have begun.
    So we are grasped by what we cannot grasp;
    it has inner light, even from a distance-

    and charges us, even if we do not reach it,
    into something else, which, hardly sensing it,
    we already are; a gesture waves us on
    answering our own wave…
    but what we feel is the wind in our faces.”

    – R. M. Rilke

    That’s beyond sheer materialistic/science, but to get beyond sheer materialistic science would be some good start to get beyond a sheer materialistic society as well. Don’t teach the children how to make a “career”, how to “compete”, how to become “rich” ect, but teach them how to develope a holistic view beyond materialism and consumerism and teach them the beauty and fragility of Nature, wich is our very own Nature. Rinse and repeat.

  20. 220
    JRClark says:

    And Hank go read #193 Hank Roberts – here’s the url to fatten your memory
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2018/05/forced-responses-may-2018/comment-page-4/#comment-704948

    #165 Hank Roberts
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2018/05/forced-responses-may-2018/comment-page-4/#comment-704828

    #153 Hank Roberts
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2018/05/forced-responses-may-2018/comment-page-4/#comment-704719

    #143 Hank Roberts finds info on Republican majors
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2018/05/forced-responses-may-2018/comment-page-3/#comment-704625

    See how this works? Or are you as sharp as niglej isn’t? :-)

    Here’s another good general tip for humans engaed in online ‘discussions’ Hank: “Before engaging mouth, remove foot!”

    Yes some more on topic science and related mitigation solutions posts would be terrific. Hit me with it. Hit me, hit me, hit me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBIRj3JW3h0

  21. 221
    JRClark says:

    216 etc Nemesis

    Sometimes it all comes down to the company we keep.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkpzlRe2zxY

    Dance like nobody’s looking Nemesis :-)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/badcompany/masterofceremony.html

    The way I look at things these days Nemesis is events like Woodstock were a total waste of energy and movie sales. May as well never happened given where we are today.

  22. 222
    JRClark says:

    addendum for Nemesis

    Money, happiness and eternal life – Greed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVuVlk2E_e4

    Shamanic Spiritual Walk in Greenland with Angaangaq Angakkorsuaq
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J2R1yEOqqI

    “Angaangaq is a keynote speaker at international conferences on climate change, environmental and indigenous issues, and he participates in peace and spiritual vigils with the United Nations, speaking on panels for the United Nation Environmental Protection Agency, the Panel on Religion and Spirituality, and the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, as well as the Panel for UNESCO’s Oceans, Fishers and Hunters. He is associated with the United Religions Initiative in alliance with the United Nations, the Club of Budapest International, The Masters Group, the Earth Restorations Corps, and serves on the special advisory council to the Jane Goodall Institute. Angaangaq’s work is acclaimed in promoting interracial and intercultural harmony.”

    I suspect he is not ignorant of the science surrounding climate issues.

  23. 223
    Scott E Strough says:

    Al Bundy,
    That’s twice now you wanted to talk results, but you didn’t email me nor reply when I emailed you. I am always looking for results to add … I got a few directly from Richard Teague when we talked after the Regenerative Ag convention here in OKC last Feb 27th.

    But as always we need more to make our case stronger. Too many people try to claim ours is the outlier and not typical results available worldwide.

    I disagree, but must admit it is just opinion as too few cases have been properly recorded and published.

    One day if I get someone interested in investing in my demonstration farm business plan, I will prove it beyond all reasonable doubt, while generating massive profits for all. (75k buys you 10% of the business and a lifetime of carbon footprint offsets for you and your family. 10k buys you a zero carbon footprint in perpetuity)

    Until then it’s just me and my tiny research plots.

  24. 224
    JR says:

    223 Scott E Strough, have you tried crowd sourcing funds? It’s worked for others and there are many sites to facilitate this approach. Don’t ignore china and india, many millionaires wanting to do good with their luck. Sorry I am in no position to do anything beyond encouraging you to keep the faith in your work and your hopes alive.

  25. 225
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @219, the qualia / taste/ subjectivity issue is interesting. However individuals can identity and agree with other people on salt, sweet, sour and bitter. Another 20 basic but more subtle taste differences have been identified according to a science article I read somewhere. The basic taste differences can be related to acid content, salt content etc so chemicals in the food. This all looks rather science based and objective to me.

    Yes some tastes are subtle and hard for individuals to agree on, but put it down to the number of fundamental tastes and the number of ways they could combine.

    So I dont know if this is a great example of the non material. But yet there seems to be something there that’s non material, or beyond what we currently understand with science. Perhaps there are things we are incapable of ever understanding.

    “Don’t teach the children how to make a “career”, how to “compete”, how to become “rich” ect, but teach them how to develope a holistic view beyond materialism and consumerism and teach them the beauty and fragility of Nature, wich is our very own Nature”

    I don’t think these are either / or things on the whole. We need to teach children career skills, science, english, maths, holistic thinking ( and not just as some token gesture either, it needs serious emphasis), life skills, values, etc. There’s time for all these things. Unfortunately corporate lobby grouos probably stand in the way on some of this.

    I don’t think we should teach children to aspire to be rich. It’s much too crude a goal. We should advise children to consider following their natural talents, but that it’s their choice in the end what they do.

  26. 226
    nigelj says:

    JR Clark says ” Yes some more on topic science and related mitigation solutions posts would be terrific. Hit me with it. Hit me, hit me, hit me! ”

    Followed immediately by:

    “Sometimes it all comes down to the company we keep. Dance like nobody’s looking Nemesis :-)”

    Sigh, if anyone lacks sharpness and self awareness you do JR :)

    Personally I don’t get upset if things go a little off topic, as long as its sciency, or philosophical and evidence based, ie not crap, history debates, or partisan politics.

  27. 227
    JR says:

    These people speak the truth about the urgency of the climate crisis! #WeDontHaveTime
    ……. to wait

    Published 30th May 2018 – already 176,909 views

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WiDE17Imlo

    “Some scientists are indicating we should make plans to adapt to a four degree hotter world.”

  28. 228
    Carrie says:

    “My principal fear is not ocean rise. It’s the ability for humanity to feed itself.” -Stuart Scott

    Stuart Scott is the founder of Faith Science Initiative, which aims to ”unite prominent religious figures and leading scientists to speak out together and mobilize action for ecological sustainability.” Among the members are Nobel Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu and prominent climatologist Dr. James Hansen.

    Stuart Scott was the first environmentalist stockbroker on Wall Street Merrill Lynch, 1977. He also worked as a software engineer for IBM and college professor of mathematics, statistics, and critical thinking before starting a career dedicated to humanity and the ecology of earth.

    Stuart Scott views the climate crisis as the effect of civilization’s dysfunctioning ’operation system’, also known as growth economics and the ideology of neoliberalism.

    “Globally, money is held to be the highest measure of value. Arguably it’s the only measure of value in society, and that is the source of our problem. Unless we can make a paradigm shift to an economic system that values and assesses ecology and ethical behaviour, we ourselves may become a casualty of anthropogenic extinction.”

    https://medium.com/wedonthavetime/the-arctic-situation-is-a-gun-we-are-pointing-at-ourselves-f555f0d5149f

    https://wedonthavetime.org/launch/videos/

  29. 229
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #218

    ” just remember psychology is a science, so this bears out what I’m saying in that science may cast some light on the non material realm.”

    Sure, psychology is a science, therefore I refered to the archetypes of C. G. Jung, who was a psychologist ;) BUT, too many hardnosed pysicists, chemists ect don’t take psychology serious and that’s a serious mistake.

    ” The god we are possibly genetically hard wired to believe in is apparently a powerful sky god that we fear and who sets rules. It’s so common in so many cultures.

    Humans have formed ordered communities because of this unifying factor, and without the belief this may not have happened. Of course we have alternative things now that provide a sense of order, like the rule of law and systems of values and ethics.”

    Exactly. The study of shamanism prooves it: The careful observation and connection to these rules you mention are the premise of survival and the historical root of human society, religion, spirituality, art and what have you. The laws of Nature are undeniable and powerful and we gotta respect them, climate science prooves it, hehe :’D

    ” “The result of promoting self-interest and people having more freedom to believe and do as they please, will be a society that John Stuart Mill warned about in the following quote…”

    Mmmh, from my perspective, more freedom to believe is essential for enlightenment. Science freed us from christian superstition, science freed us from christian propaganda against women, nature, sexuality ect ect (hopefully^^). There are so many religions out there because of the freedom to believe in whatever religion, science freed us from exclusivity of any specific religion, christianity isn’t omnipotent anymore and I really like that. Gush, nowadays you got the freedom to deny god altogether if you like, thanks to science. Yeees, like I said earlier, I love science :)

    ” “If society lets a considerable number of its members grow up mere children, incapable of being acted on by rational consideration of distant motives, society has itself to blame for the consequences.”

    That hits the nail perfectly. Only children believe in an omnipotent old patriarch living in heaven sending all nonebelievers or all none-christians or none-muslims to hell :) Therefore, again, I love cold, rational science. So, when we study religion/spirituality with scientific methods, we gotta free ourselves from any specific religion.

  30. 230
    Nemesis says:

    @JRClark, #221

    Hey thanks a lot for that great, inspiring tune of Bad Company! Yes, I dance like nobody is looking all the time ;)

    https://youtu.be/NBEoK25CMIU

    ” The way I look at things these days Nemesis is events like Woodstock were a total waste of energy and movie sales. May as well never happened given where we are today.”

    The 60s movement has been beaten down by brute political force. I remember Nixon shooting at american students ect ect ect. And the rest of that revolutionary force has been infiltrated and killed by capitalism. The 60s revolution would have been our chance for change, uhm, bad luck- now, 50 years later, we are in bigger trouble than ever before :’D

    https://youtu.be/RixzYzUIxLk

    Now, let’s see what we make of it :)

    @JRClark, 222

    Again, thanks a lot. I’ve seen both some time ago, that documentary about greed and the greenland shaman. After all, the claim that greed is a primary virtue of Homo Sapiens is wrong, in fact, it is capitalist propaganda. We got a lot to learn from people like Angaangaq Angakkorsuaq, who surely isn’t ignorant of the science surrounding climate issues, because he feels the consequences every day on Greenland. This little piece tells a lot:

    https://youtu.be/yVUpGR-aLnw

  31. 231
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #225

    ” Nemesis @219, the qualia / taste/ subjectivity issue is interesting. However individuals can identity and agree with other people on salt, sweet, sour and bitter. Another 20 basic but more subtle taste differences have been identified according to a science article I read somewhere. The basic taste differences can be related to acid content, salt content etc so chemicals in the food. This all looks rather science based and objective to me.”

    I see. Now, if science identified “20 basic but more subtle taste differences”, please, can science tell me how a cup of tea tastes like? No scientist can ever tell me, how tea tastes like I bet. Sure, people can agree with other people on the taste of tea, salt, sugar ect, they can conventionally agree on qualia. Salt tastes salty, right? You agree I bet :) But imagine someone who never tasted salt. No one, no scientist could ever tell him, how salt tastes, because you must eat it, taste it, that’s the only way to experience what salt tastes like. The taste of tea is an experience, not a chemical formula. And that’s exactly what I mean by the term “qualia”. Science can tell a lot, it can tell an awful lot of truly reasonable things, but it can never ever tell the taste of tea resp. the experience of drinking tea. Imagine someone who can’t swim:

    Science could tell a hell of a lot about physics, gravitation, movement of objects within space, displacement, density of water, the human body, human brain functions, water molecules ect ect ect, but it can never ever teach you how to swim and it can’t tell you the experience of swimming.

    ” Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water.
    The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken.
    Although its light is wide and great,
    The moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide.
    The whole moon and the entire sky
    Are reflected in one dewdrop on the grass.

    – Dogen

    Now, is Dogen a scientist? What is Dogen? What does it feel like to experience the taste of tea or the taste, the qualia Dogen is talking about?

    ” It is as though you have an eye
    That sees all forms
    But does not see itself.
    This is how your mind is.
    Its light penetrates everywhere
    And engulfs everything,
    So why does it not know itself?”

    – Foyan

    Where’s the scientist who can teach me about that mysterious eye, where’s the scientist who can locate that eye in time and space, who can tell the taste of that eye, who can tell it in kilogram and centimeter? No one, because that eye, that taste is immaterial, it transcends matter, it transcends time and space, life and death, science and religion, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    ” If you want to be free,
    Get to know your real self.
    It has no form, no appearance,
    No root, no basis, no abode,
    But is lively and buoyant.
    It responds with versatile facility,
    But its function cannot be located.
    Therefore when you look for it,
    You become further from it;
    When you seek it,
    You turn away from it all the more.

    – Linji

    What’s the qualia, what’s the quality, what’s the taste of no form, no appearence, no root, no basis, no abode, my beloved scientists? Again, seriously:

    What’s the taste of tea? :)

  32. 232
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @230, hunter gatherer society is essentilly cooperative and egalitarian. Quite how we all get back to that space god only knows.

    I think competitiveness and self interest is hard wired into us, along with cooperative instincts, but hunter gatherers supressed this competitive instinct.

    Humanity has enhanced competition with the emphasis on markets and “greed is good” economic doctrine since the 1980’s, and this has happened at exactly the wrong time in terms of the climate problem, because it is so short term focused and legitimises taking and taking from the environment.

    We probably need a middle ground. Moderation in all things etc.

  33. 233
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #332

    ” I think competitiveness and self interest is hard wired into us, along with cooperative instincts, but hunter gatherers supressed this competitive instinct.”

    But ancient, indigenous societies don’t know of competitiveness when it comes to material competition of “wealth. Hunter gatherers compete in games, in matches, “sporting” events and such, but an indio for instance would never start to catch tons of fish and hoard it in some stock and later selling it to anyone. An indio would compete with his companions about who is the best hunter, but he would never hunt 5 wild boars and keep them for himself, in fact, he doesn’t even keep one for himself, his entire prey is owned by the community. Indios just don’t hoard material shit, makes no sense as a nomad ;) You talk about self-interest. Sure, indios got self-interest, even bacterias got self interest. But they don’t hoard material shit like crazy. Man, I don’t hoard material shit, I don’t hoard funny money. Sure, I got self-interest like crazy, self-interest like hell, but most of the things that are worth in my eyes to be hunted can never be bought by funny money. If competiton of material wealth is hardwired, we better get rid of it quickly or extinction is inevitable I bet. Cooperation over competition or extinction, that simple.

    Anway, let these politicians and banksters and moneymakers compete like real Hell, like if there were no tomorrow, let them run for money, and most important, let them run to save the planet by competition, by capitalsm, by funny money. Run, capitalism, RUN! like you never did before, the clock is ticking, tic tac, click clack like a machine, a merciless machine, the machine of the laws of Nature. And beware:

    The more you run, the Hotter it will get.

    ” Humanity has enhanced competition with the emphasis on markets and “greed is good” economic doctrine since the 1980’s, and this has happened at exactly the wrong time in terms of the climate problem, because it is so short term focused and legitimises taking and taking from the environment.

    We probably need a middle ground. Moderation in all things etc.”

    So true, so true. To make a short story even shorter:

    Nobody will stop capitalism until it dies. And it will die soon. Don’t mistake the powers that be, these guys are no tree huggers, for them it’s all about grab it all or die trying. And they will die trying, no matter, if mankind and the rest of it goes to Hell, they give a shit.

  34. 234
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @231, I had a read about qualia on wikipedia. The vast range of views suggests its not a settled issue either way. I lean towards Minskys sceptical and materialist view mostly, maybe Lewis a little, but its interesting that the physicist Shrodinger is a believer.

    I think its similar to the issue of consciousness which is hard to define as an entity, yet seems to be a result of a range of attributes coming together.

    But minskys explanation is simple overall compared to the others, and able to be described in one short paragraph. Occams Razor material?

  35. 235

    N 229: Science freed us from christian superstition

    BPL: Which Christian superstition, specifically, did “science” free us from?

  36. 236
    Nemesis says:

    I said recently in a comment that Trumps climate denial is a fake denial. Now I found this beautiful timeline, leading from the 50s right to Mr. Trump:

    https://insideclimatenews.org/content/climate-denial-long-campaign-misinformation

    Article:

    https://insideclimatenews.org/news/22122017/big-oil-heartland-climate-science-misinformation-campaign-koch-api-trump-infographic

    Schizo.

  37. 237
    Al Bundy says:

    Nemisis,
    “Materialist” and “physicalist” are damn near disjoint given this conversation. No materialist would work in a cinderblock office with nary a hot chick in sight to serve his whim and no hope of ever earning above an upper muddle class income, especially if they’re so brilliant that becoming a billionaire is a decision as opposed to a pipe dream.

    Nigelj has it right up to this point, but he falls flat with regard to alternatives. Laborism is the key
    Limit how high an individual can financially fly and reward work and advancements instead of investment.

    Scott,
    Most Christians desire for the Bible to be true, and most humans want to be around to witness “big things”. So, Christians often actively work to destroy the world and ” prove” Revelations correct. My sister grinned from ear to ear when I explained what she and her kind, uh, God was doing to the Earth. Rapture and Armageddon is the goal of almost all Christians. Read your own post. It’s filled with righteous death and destruction and distills down to “The total destruction of Earth is wonderful because that’s God’s plan”.

    Basically, you argue with yourself because your soul disagrees with your religion. (IMHO)

  38. 238
    Al Bundy says:

    Carrie: got a list of my failures

    AB: No, but I’ve got a list of reasons why I wish you were single and lived next door.

    JRClark, negative emission strategies while emissions still occur is exactly like sanctioning the minimal gain from stabbing someone for their wallet and then spending tens of thousands patching up the wounds in hospital. Insanity. Negative emissions will always cost a tremendous amount as compared to not emitting.

    BPL: that YOU think that Jesus is God in no way limits other folks’ ideas of Jesus. Have you read the old testament and seriously considered whether Jesus would barf at the ideas presented therein? Jesus’ teachings refute the rest of the Bible, and your beliefs are irrelevant to the analysis. Science, dude.

    Scott,
    I didn’t get your email. I’ll look in my spam bucket and in any case write you. I was simply being polite by not infringing on your privacy without permission. I’ll have current year results in about 120 days.

    Nemisis, have you read Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land?

  39. 239
    Al Bundy says:

    Scott,
    I can’t find either your new email or the old stuff. I searched my two email addresses. Perhaps we conversed with my old “InitialContact” address? Unfortunately, that one wants my old phone number to confirm that I’m me. So, use ManyAndVaried@hotmail.com

    Thanks,

    Doc (and yes, I look like I just came Back to the Future – I’m Doc Brown every Halloween)

    ——————

    Nigel on refuting,

    Refuting is disjoint with not feeding the trolls. If nobody refuted the deniers here then ever so much goop would be avoided. Is refuting “free advertising”? Ask Donald Drumpf.

    Perhaps if folks simply posted links with absolutely no words, such as:

    ClimateWunderkid,
    ScienceLink

    Silent refutation, as it may. You know the denier won’t click on the link and the conversation will die.

  40. 240
    Al Bundy says:

    BPL: Which Christian superstition, specifically, did “science” free us from?

    AB: hmm, how about Stephen Hawkins’ demonstration that no deity is needed to form the universe?

  41. 241
    Mal Adapted says:

    BPL:

    Which Christian superstition, specifically, did “science” free us from?

    IMUMO it’s more correct to say that science decoupled Christian theology from justified knowledge of ‘reality’, i.e. what doesn’t go away when you stop believing it. I’ve been an atheist since age 12, but I’m acquainted with a number of disciplined empiricists who don’t allow their devout Christian faith to influence their scientific judgment. I don’t claim to understand how they manage it, but I don’t think they’re lying to me. Anecdotally, I have little doubt Katharine Hayhoe is more representative of her scientifically trained coreligionists than Roy Spencer is.

  42. 242

    KIA, #217–

    Totally hypothetical – probably never happen. IF new science, peer-reviewed and accepted by 97% of CC scientists, determined that AGW predictions of rising temperature were not correct, and that CO2 was not a problem, would you be happy about it? For me, the answer would be yes.

    Duh! Of course, yes!

    But you’re right, it’s exceedingly unlikely to happen.

  43. 243
    Nemesis says:

    @Al Bundy, #237

    ” “Materialist” and “physicalist” are damn near disjoint given this conversation.”

    By “materialist” in a scientific sense I’m refering to this definition:

    ” Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions…”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

    And then there is the economic/social materialist you described so beautifully in your comment:

    ” Materialism is a personal attitude which attaches importance to acquiring and consuming material goods…”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_materialism

    Both are intertwined in modern man. A purely materialistic scientific world perception leads to a very narrow worldview, where mostly material things are percieved as “real”, while none-material things are mostly neglected. And that’s exactly my point regarding to the “spiritual” (or say “psychological”, if you like) crisis of modern man as the root of the ecological/climatic crisis we’re in. The crisis is rooted in a distorted perception:

    When you look at the world from a purely scientific materialistic/physicalistic worldview, then you lose the holistic view. For example, when you look at a tree, you see wood, branches, leaves, all the seperates, you might think of cutting pieces off from the tree to explore it through some microscope. You cut smaller and smaller pieces until you might end up in the realm of atoms and particles ect. BUT you lost the living being, the living holistic entity of the tree completely. This is what happened to modern man, he got lost in details, in pieces and pieces of pieces, he is lost in matter, material objects and disregards the invisible, holistic UNITY of all there is.

    There goes the saying “man is part of nature”, as if nature could be cut into little pieces. But that’s a fallacy, because man isn’t just a part of nature, man IS nature in action. When you lose this unity, this oneness, you end up feeling like something is missing, it’s like a hole in your soul and you try to fill that hole with material shit, money, car, house, gold and silver, whatever. This way you end up in endless consumerism, always consuming, but never satisfied. And capitalism loves you, because people who are never satisfied are the perfect source of profit, material profit.

    No life after death, because you are just some chemical processes in some brain, when the brain dies you’ll end up in “nothingness” (whatever that is)? Uh oh, time is sparse, some decades and I’ll be gone, so I need to get it all within a few decades, I need to grab as much as I can during this tiny, tiny lifetime, no chance to grab anything when I’m dead and gone. Perfect conditions for ever consuming capitalism. And so we end up in a treadmill and everyone wants more and more and ever more, exploiting the planet more and ever more, ending up in a complete ecological and climatic mess, ending up where you never wanted to be in the first place, ending up in destruction, death and finally extinction. So what, when I’m dead I’ll give a f* anyway, let’s go on making money, consuming like hell and tomorrow we give a f*. That’s the materialist, capitalist treadmill out there and it brings death and destruction, obviously. Yes, just like you said, “becoming a billionaire” is a decision, a decision I never made, a pipe dream I never had ;)

    ” Laborism is the key. Limit how high an individual can financially fly and reward work and advancements instead of investment.”

    Would be a good idea, but the powers that be resp. the powers who ARE in fact billionaires, will never allow that ;) Maybe there’s another solution:

    Restrict yourself, try to look through the misconceptions and misperceptions, free yourself from the pipe dream of endless money hoarding and consumerism. Save yourself in the first place, not the world. This way you subvert the system. If a critical mass would accumulate this way, real change from the bottom would happen. There are some signs that more and more people are fed up with endless consumerism, see the minimalism movement for instance.

  44. 244
    nigelj says:

    Nemesis @233, yes hunter gatherers didn’t compete economically and hoard posessions. This was probably basically because they had populations that were too small for market economic competition, and not enough production of goods to hoard things.

    That doesnt make hoarding or economic competition good things “per se”. Im just trying to figure out why ancient hunter gatherer society was different to ours. I dont think its was based in ethics and it was more just different circumstances.

    Fwiw I think hoarding is a bad thing mostly (nothing wrong with having some surplus goods as a buffer and for emergencies). I don’t get the mentality where people have this need to own multiple cars for example, – or I assume its for status. I personally find owning one car more than enough trouble.

    “Nobody will stop capitalism until it dies. And it will die soon. Don’t mistake the powers that be, these guys are no tree huggers, for them it’s all about grab it all or die trying. And they will die trying, no matter, if mankind and the rest of it goes to Hell, they give a shit.”

    Yes theres some truth in all that. Unfortunately there are a few very nasty people in this world, and they get to sometimes run corporations and so they call the shots. In fact I read an article about the astonishing number of sociopaths who are chief executives, based on a research study in Australia (all countries are probably the same). But then not all chief executives are bad guys, just look at the huge Bill Gates charity / foundation.

    Capitalism may keep on until things hit a wall and it self destructs. I would prefer it evolve into a saner form, and keep some healthy competition.

  45. 245
    nigelj says:

    Al Bundy

    “Rapture and Armageddon is the goal of almost all Christians.”

    Are you sure? I get the impression this is mainly the evangelicals, while mainstream christians avoid that stuff, and just think belief in Christ is enough and things will work out. People pick and choose what parts of the bible they like.

    But the rapture and armaggedon thing certainly explains elements of American foreign policy.

  46. 246
    nigelj says:

    Al Bundy @239, I mostly deal with denialists on other websites by posting concise, fact based refutations and a few links. Sometimes I get into detail if I have time.

    But here is the thing. I’m not really posting to convince the denialists, it’s more for anyone else interested and for fence sitters. I get quite a lot out of reading the very detailed refutations written by experts like CC Holey. And I like the mental exercise so there’s a selfish motive.

    I think the best way to do refutations (rebutals) is to be polite and concede where denialists may have a point, and then say where I think the weaknesses are. Im sometimes blunt and rude and I usually regret this, but you do not want to try to be excessively polite or to be denialists friends, and kind of appease them too much, I have found they will turn that against you. These people do not respect any sign of weakness, and I don’t like deliberately manipulating people. But I’m open to constructive suggestions on alternative approaches.

  47. 247
    nigelj says:

    Mal Adapted @211, ha! I have been an athiest from about 11! I read a young persons version of the bible, and decided it was too implausible! There are also way too many inconsistences in the bible.

    Separation of church and state was one of the best things we did, and one of the ongoing problems with Islam.

    It’s easy enough to balance a belief in scientific evolution and physics, with the idea of god as simply a prime mover and omni potent presence. However I dont know how scientists deal with jesus and ideas of heaven and hell…

  48. 248
    Nemesis says:

    @nigelj, #234

    ” . The vast range of views suggests its not a settled issue either way. I lean towards Minskys sceptical and materialist view mostly, maybe Lewis a little…”

    Then please see my comment at #231, if you haven’t done yet. You can describe certain flavours, tastes, neuro phenomena ect scientifically, but you can’t have an experience of taste through science. Qualia can be described objectively by science, but qualia can never be experienced subjectively through science. Qualia refer to EXPERIENCE per definition, qualia are experiences, not descriptions of material molecules, brain functions ect . A scientist can tell gazillion things about the taste of tea, he can tell tons of neuro phenomena ect, but for the scientist there’s zero chance to know by himself what tea tastes like until he drinks it. Maybe it’s the same with Schroedingers cat, maybe it’s a Cheshire Cat, meow :)

    https://youtu.be/2ueZo5i6GPg

    ” Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler, but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire Cat.”

    ― Julian Huxley, Religion Without Revelation

    ” That which is not comprehended by the mind but by which the mind comprehends— know that…”

    – Upanishads

  49. 249
    Hank Roberts says:

    IF new science … determined that AGW predictions of rising temperature were not correct …

    I’m sure a lot of us include that possibility in our thoughts and prayers.

    But we’d also have to explain the already-risen temperature. Vast conspiracy of thermometers?

  50. 250
    Al Bundy says:

    BPL,
    You actually said that NOT going ad hominum is wrong. Athiests MUST reject all of Jesus’ teachings and never praise him because Jesus believed in a deity? Reminds me of my version of that bumper sticker: Christians aren’t evil, just wrong.

    Mal, are your friends fundamentalists? The bible is 100% literal truth (Jesus was crucified three times since that’s the only way to reconcile to gospels’ mutually exclusive yarns (last words are immensely important to humans.) 7 days to make and 10KY old and science be damned? Stars all converging and colliding with the Earth yet the Earth survives? Etc.)

    But if they have faith and treat the bible as a tract that, though riddled with understandable flaws (we’re talking Bronze Age science and social structure), still sings to the soul,then I don’t see an issue.

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